Ep#081 Exploring Sexuality and the Enneagram With Ann Gadd – A Doorway To Personal Growth and Evolution

The critical importance of gathering insights into why we do what we do to achieve true well being is why we are talking again with Enneagram practitioner and holistic therapist, Ann Gadd who we just had on in Episode 79, How Knowing Your Enneagram Personality Type Can Impact Your Relationship With Food

Today we discuss her eye opening book, Sex and the Enneagram: A Guide to Passionate Relationships for the Nine Personality Types. In our conversation, Ann explains how the Enneagram is an empowering tool to reveal and explore our sexuality and connect with our hidden shadow sides so that we can experience a deeper, more authentic expression of ourselves.

Through the lens of sexuality Ann explains how the Enneagram system gives us an understanding of our subconscious motivations, beliefs, and habitual behaviour patterns.

Because, it turns out learning how we get our intimate relationship needs met gives us important clues about how we get our general needs met, and vice versa.

Listen to this elevated conversation about our sexuality as a doorway to self discovery, emotional maturity and therefore true well being.

Visit Her Website: https://www.anngadd.co.za

Buy the Book: Sex and the Enneagram

Learn More About the Enneagram and Get Your Free 9 Type Download : https://enneagrams9paths.com

Podcast Transcript

0 (1s):
Welcome to the Soul Science Nutrition Podcast, where you’ll discover that when it comes to your health, you’re so much more powerful than you’ve been led to believe. And now your host, she’s a holistic nutrition and lifestyle coach, chef, author, and Yogi, Christine Okezie.

Christine Okezie (23s):
Hello and welcome to the Soul Science Nutrition Podcast. I’m Christine Okezie. Thanks so much for listening. So you might’ve heard the saying how we do. One thing is how we do everything. It really resonates with me in particularly for the topic of today’s show, because the patterns of behavior and characteristics that can be seen in one area of our life will reliably present themselves in other areas as well. So for example, you may be looking to radically change your relationship with food, self care, perhaps your job, a partner, a family member, or even a boss. But if you don’t do the hard and humbling inner work on yourself, you will probably attract the same kind of relationship dynamics that you had before this basic truth about the critical importance of gathering insight into why we do what we do is why we’re talking again with any aground practitioner and holistic therapist and GAD who we just had on the podcast and episode 79, how knowing your Enneagram personality type can impact your relationship with food.

Christine Okezie (1m 28s):
Well, today we discuss her eye-opening book sex and the Enneagram, a guide to passionate relationships for the nine personality types in this conversation and explains how the Enneagram is an empowering tool to reveal and explore our sexuality connect with our hidden shadow sides so that we can experience a deeper, more authentic expression of ourselves through the lens of sexuality and explains how the Enneagram system gives us an understanding of our subconscious motivations, beliefs and habitual behavior patterns, because it turns out how we get our intimate relationship needs met, gives us understanding into how we get our general needs met because they follow the same patterns.

Christine Okezie (2m 16s):
I can’t wait for you to listen in on this elevated conversation about our sexuality as a doorway, to self-discovery emotional maturity and thus true wellbeing. And I do want to make mention that Anne is doing personal one-on-one consultations via zoom. So if you’re looking to dive even deeper into this beautifully complex personality type system with the Enneagram, you want to contact Ann at www.anngadd.co.za. A and of course, I’ll be sure to put that in the show notes and just for full disclosure, the audio quality on this particular episode might be a little different than previous episodes.

Christine Okezie (3m 1s):
We had quite a bit of real life situations going on that made the, the recording a little bit more real than others. So apologize in advance for some background noise and some audio disruptions that happened. But you know, we’ve got to keep it real here on planet zoom. So nonetheless, if you do like the podcast and you like the subject, I’d be grateful if you’d leave a rating and review. And if you haven’t hit the subscribe button, please do. So it really helps me keep the podcast growing. So thanks again for listening guys and enjoy the episode. Hi Anne. Great to have you back on the podcast. Thanks for being here.

Ann Gadd (3m 40s):
Thank you for inviting me, Christine. Thank you.

Christine Okezie (3m 42s):
So what was your motivation to explore the subject of sexuality with the Enneagram system?

Ann Gadd (3m 52s):
I believe that our sexuality is when many of us, so I would even say most of us have had some wounding in some way. And I believe that, you know, just the same way as how we paint reflects a lot about our inner life in a world. So does our sexuality. So we winded sexually, it’s going to affect how we navigate the world. And so in understanding ourselves we, and, and, and our sexuality, it’s a big step towards healing and Instagram provides such a wonderful tool to really come to profound insights into ourselves.

Christine Okezie (4m 47s):
Yes, yes. So another portal to our self-discovery and self-understanding right. And, and one, I think that tends not to be, you know, confronted very well or at least very artfully these days. So it’s important. And I love the way that you do it in your book. What are some of the healing benefits? If you could talk about what is some of the healing benefits of bringing awareness and clarity to our sexual drives, desires tendencies.

Ann Gadd (5m 18s):
We come from a bygone era, but it’s still infiltrates our current world where a lot of belief system made us kind of date from the waist down. You know, there was a kind of nobility in celibacy and doing so I think we, we, we destroyed a lot of, we made six bands. We made six a thing of shame. Yes. Whereas interestingly enough, on the other side of the world, you know, were practicing tantra, dancing, sexuality as a way to spiritual enlightenment.

Ann Gadd (6m 5s):
So it really was a sort of opposites. And I think that, that as a result of that, a result of, you know, the Victorian era and so on we’ve, we’ve made, we’ve limited our sexuality and our exploration of sex.

Christine Okezie (6m 23s):

Ann Gadd (6m 25s):
And most of us didn’t carry some who have guilt and shame within us.

Christine Okezie (6m 31s):
Okay. So we can, you know, and releasing that guilt and shame and is certainly some is in the direction of becoming, you know, healthier and happier and more whole, so I think it’s an important doorway to do that. I agree. I agree. Yeah. It is an interesting juxtaposition to see the Western culture and how it sorta got carved out and put away. Right. Yeah,

Ann Gadd (6m 58s):
Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, I think as a result for years, I mean, I mean, it was only recently, I mean, relatively recently, mystery that women were recognized as actually having orgasms, you know, in the Western world, you know, it was considered a major discovery. I mean, hello.

Christine Okezie (7m 22s):
Hello. Exactly. Exactly. No, I know. Yeah. Okay. So stepping into, you know, a mortar, you know, empowering view of this essential component of our nature, right? Why not? I always say, you know, is this is the direction that we want to move in when it comes to the true definition of wellbeing, right. Accepting and diving into our whole self, oh, I love this. How could someone trying to follow the Enneagram? Okay. And what you’re saying about sexuality and personality type, this is where I want to go into some myths or misconceptions before we actually get into the system.

Christine Okezie (8m 2s):
What is something that maybe they could easily misunderstand or get wrong when saying, okay, I want to learn about my sexuality using the Enneagram.

Ann Gadd (8m 13s):
They, the first natural inclination is to type the person we’re in a relationship with and make them wrong, You know, to jump up behind the Poncet. Well, now you see why X, Y, or Z, right? Yeah. That’s a very popular sport. It doesn’t achieve anything because it’s my belief that whatever relationship we’re in, not only are we in it to learn from, but it’s also in some way, a mirror or a reflection of what is happening inside ourselves. So I wrote a book called what went wrong with Mr.

Ann Gadd (8m 55s):
Wright. And it looked at the seesaw effect of as one aspect of ourselves changes. So it will change the whole nature of the relationship. And so as we start to become fully embracing of our sexuality and therefore loving ourselves, it will affect whatever relationships we’re in.

Christine Okezie (9m 22s):
Yes. Yes. Okay. All right. So let’s dive in. Now, there are nine distinct personality types for those who’ve listened to the previous podcast. We walked through essentially the nine main ones, but in this book and you do a really illuminating job of grouping them in groups of three, a triad, oh, Corrine, Navien triad. Yes. Please. Using that framework, it’s useful. How do we, how can we see those triads? Like it all comes down to how we get our needs met, right?

Ann Gadd (10m 1s):
Absolutely. Yes. I changed carton or nays names changed the names to have gone sing retreating and conditional in each of those groupings or triads has three of the types in them. If we take the advancing types, which are types three, seven, and eight with they moved into the world and, and, and confronting sort of energy to get their needs met. And that applies to sit their sexual needs as well.

Ann Gadd (10m 43s):
Yes. But the clue is that they do it in different ways.

Christine Okezie (10m 49s):

Ann Gadd (10m 49s):
So it’s the same strategy, but because they’re different in types, they do it in a different way. So for instance, the type three, which is your very ambitious, goal-orientated charismatic, get the job done efficient, you know, top corporate employee, that kind of person, they will try to sparkle in the world. They will try to sort of attract the mate through their achievements. Look at me, I’m the CEO of the company and I’m only 30 and I’ve done this. And then that, you know, so in hoping that’s, I mean, this is obviously self-conscious, but that will attract people to them.

Ann Gadd (11m 35s):
So it’s like that’s waving, waving flags in way, you know? And because they’re very confidence takes a lot of sixes about being confident. So, you know, it can work for them. Kevin’s moved into the world with a gung ho kind of party. Let’s make it happen next, keep busy. Also all your three of types are charismatic as well. But, but, but really, you know, with me, you’re going to see and do things you’ve never done before. So it is a very up there in the world kind of thing.

Ann Gadd (12m 18s):
And then with an aids, it’s more about reading against others. So it’s more about, will you stand in the fire with me? Will you be able to have my energy levels, which are very high because eights are warm-hearted magnanimous, but they enjoy being the boss in control in charge and whilst all the time hiding their vulnerability.

Christine Okezie (12m 50s):
Okay. So, so just to dive deeper, so type three, seven, and eight are part of this advancing subtype or advancing group. Right. And it shows, and, and there’s, I guess, as we walk through them, what we want to understand is that there are some general trends traits that can be, I guess, high expression and sort of, I would say lower expression. Right. So another integrated or non-integrated. So going back into that, right. So they’re when they’re, when they’re balanced, these traits are enhancing and health promoting in terms of their sexuality and relationship, but when they aren’t integrated, right.

Christine Okezie (13m 31s):
They can go the other way and affect our sexuality and our relationship intimacy. Right. So type three. And I love the names in your book to type three, again, awesomely orgasmic, so very performance oriented. Right. So for someone who’s sort of doing, doing, doing for someone who’s very, like you said, achievement oriented, look at me, you know, caught up in that striving almost. I want to almost say like that type a personality, is that about right? Yeah. Yeah. And so, so, but when we, when that person is a type three and they’re really competent and they’re really kind of, you know, kind of really into their achievements, it can mask certain feelings of incompetence, right.

Christine Okezie (14m 20s):
Or feelings of on worthiness, I guess, or unlovability is that the other expression of a type three,

Ann Gadd (14m 29s):
When you create an idealization of yourself as the great achiever, wonderful in so many ways and so on, there’s that huge fear that people are going to realize that maybe it’s like, it’s all on the outside, an empty shell inside. And so they become less emotionally and spiritually healthy threes trying to hide that part of themselves. So in fact, in a relationship, they may even reject a partner so that they don’t have the humiliation of being rejected. But once they find that person who kind of knows that interior of themselves and accept that, then they can be as loyal and devoted as, as a type six, for instance.

Ann Gadd (15m 25s):
But it’s, but there’s a huge fear that it’s like, I’m like, I seen a cake and you put loads of fancy icing and decoration and it all looks amazing. But the actual, what if the cake inside is a flop? What if it doesn’t taste good? What if it’s going to, and then that’s the kind of fear that threes have. And so with sex, it’s the same, it’s like my performance, how many orgasms I can do this? I can do that, but, but it’s masking this, this, yeah. That’s maybe I’m not such a hard level. Maybe, you know, I project success, but I feel a failure.

Christine Okezie (16m 9s):
Interesting. Okay.

Ann Gadd (16m 11s):
Do you just want to say that and to correct Russ Hudson who’s author of the wisdom of the Enneagram to get with Don Risa, which I’m sure anyone in the Instagram world has heard of, but one thing he said is that in the Instagram, you have to work with what he called. You know, it’s, it’s a tough medicine, so I could write all the wonderful, nice bits about each Instagram type, but it would all be amazing and wonderful, but it would inhibit your growth because we, aren’t always all amazing and wonderful.

Ann Gadd (16m 52s):
And you’ve got to see that shadow side of yourself in order to make the shift beyond it. And for some people that can be really, really hard because all of us have parts of ourselves that we don’t want to see. And we don’t want to acknowledge, of course in Instagram is a kind of paradox. So everything works from what I am not at my lowest level of health to what I am on the other side. So, so we grow from judgment and criticism say to being accepting of all it is, but it’s a journey between the two

Christine Okezie (17m 46s):
And it’s dynamic. And I think that’s, what’s really to your point, right? Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. And it’s consciousness essentially, you know, it’s, it’s bringing to light, you know, using this as allowing us to bring things to light in that regard. I love that. Okay. So type seven spontaneous suitor, you talked about, you know, kind of, I don’t know the word you used also was hedonistic, you know, sort of spontaneity, you know, but they’re always looking for the next better thing. They don’t want to get bored. Right. So we can all kind of relate to this, you know, in certain ways there’s a restlessness, you know, I don’t know, maybe an idealized image of, you know, what’s going to be fun.

Christine Okezie (18m 32s):
What’s going to be great. Right.

Ann Gadd (18m 35s):
And the projection into the future. So when they’re not healthy siblings, aren’t going to enjoy the sex they’re having. Now, they’re already thinking about, well, if it’s good with one person, what have you liked with two, what have you liked with this person? Well, that person off at this place. So, so that they’re not here and often even to the point that sevens can get bored with sex very easily with, in a relationship with the same person. And that doesn’t mean to say that necessarily retrofit have sex with everyone else, although they can, but it can mean that they then actually would rather do something else. They find more stimulating at that moment. More exciting, more different, or very

Christine Okezie (19m 16s):
Interesting. Interesting. Okay.

Ann Gadd (19m 19s):
And then nothing is ever quite enough, you know?

Christine Okezie (19m 24s):
Yeah. Okay. And, and, and certainly that can lead to some discontent or dissatisfaction, or at least lack of presence in what you have appreciation for what you have

Ann Gadd (19m 37s):
Well, in every way that we don’t show up sexually, it’s an indication of where we lack in prisons

Christine Okezie (19m 45s):
Say more about that. That’s really important.

Ann Gadd (19m 48s):
Well, if we go back to a three, if you’re focuses on your performance, whereas the prisons in there, Because you thinking about how you’re going to portray yourself as a great lover, or did the group job work for me, or is my tummy tuck looking at whatever, but you’re not, you’re not with what’s happening with your partner

Christine Okezie (20m 19s):
And you’re not with your, with, with your, again, that presence of being presence of mind, presence of body, presence of spirit. Right. Is that the core? I think of why this is such a important health tool in that regard, because anything that doesn’t allow us to deepen the presence into ourselves takes us away from, you know, ultimately, you know, true wellbeing and, and health. Yeah.

Ann Gadd (20m 44s):
And with the seven, if we can’t find joy in the moment, it’s always so many womens in the future. So seventh have to sort of become sober to the moment.

Christine Okezie (21m 3s):
Wow. Okay. So that’s a good strategy. And at the end of each type, you do pose some really useful questions to raise our self-awareness around this. So for, and like just moving on to type eight, again, the type eight is the third in this tryout of the advancing type. You entitled this, the lusty lever. So, you know, but controlling all about sort of the need to dominate in some way, a desire for, you know, pleasure and access in that regard. Again, you know, depending on the spectrum, what’s a good, you know, what are some useful questions to ask an eight to kind of raise awareness, you know, raise their consciousness.

Christine Okezie (21m 44s):

Ann Gadd (21m 44s):
You could perhaps say, are you aware of how much your energetic presence sort of fills the room? Because most of the time it’s, aren’t aware of that. They aren’t aware how sometimes the desire to be in charge and to protect as well can actually creates a withdrawal from the very person they want to connect with because it’s just too much, it’s too big. It’s too, you know, when the person then says and start stepping back, it’s very frustrating for Nate because they want you to meet them.

Ann Gadd (22m 26s):
They come this way and you think, oh, you know, and you start doing that. And then, you know, which is, is not so, so if they become aware of how much energy they have and how much their project, when they come into a relationship or situation, they can then hold back. So for instance, I was doing the zoom call yesterday and they happened to be about three eights in the meeting. We were all going around making comments. And it was interesting because the one eight said to wait till the end, because she sort of disciplined herself to wait till the end, before she said everything, anything as opposed to the natural inclination, which is okay, I’m yeah.

Ann Gadd (23m 11s):
I’ll show them what, you know, and, and then sort of almost take over. So it’s when aides become aware of that and allow themselves to express that innocence and vulnerability that works with in them that lives within them, then they can open up their hearts, which are big and magnanimous. And I say then actually truly become present and, and caring others.

Christine Okezie (23m 46s):
Okay. Thank you. So, so, so fascinating. I love it. Okay. So the sec, the next triad we can jump into, we want to do the one, two and six. So that’s the conditional conditional types. Yes. Okay. So tell us about those.

Ann Gadd (24m 7s):
So conditional types say that sex can be had, but the certain conditions that need to be made before it can be had, but it’s not a free flowing of six it’s listen, listen, listen, once again, in each of the three types, it plays out that those conditions play out differently.

Christine Okezie (24m 29s):

Ann Gadd (24m 31s):
So if we take the one, if you have your very desire for a bit of world noble attitude, follow me, I know the way kind of thing, desire for perfection it’s right or wrong. It’s Blackwoods points responsible, hardworking. So if you take, if you take that and you overlaid sexually, what happens is once will say, if I meet this, these certain criteria, then I deserve to have sex. So in other words, if I earn a good income or clean the house, or am a senior person in a particular religious organization or whatever it is, I know have earned the right to have sex.

Christine Okezie (25m 26s):
Wow. There’s a lot of delayed grads. And what would a type one need to ask themselves to have more consciousness around these tendencies

Ann Gadd (25m 38s):
To be okay with things not being perfect. So when they have six and their opinion, if it wasn’t perfect to be okay with that, and also to stop this feeling that everything has to be perfect in order to have sex

Christine Okezie (25m 57s):
Or your body. A lot of, a lot of women struggle with, you know, oh, well, you know, if I was thinner, you know, if I can just lose these 10 pounds, then I’ll have better sex, then I can have the right to enjoy sex.

Ann Gadd (26m 9s):
Absolutely. Yeah. That’s a very good point. So it’s, and they could be being harsh on themselves as all those messages that we use to beat ourselves up,

Christine Okezie (26m 24s):
Make ourselves wrong. Okay. So type two and type six or the other to complete the conditional tree at triad. So tell us about, you know, what do we need to kind of notice there?

Ann Gadd (26m 39s):
So type twos are nurturing doing for others. It’s sort of mothering energy in a way. And the biblical Sydney’s pride, pride, passion, I think is probably a better word is pride. And the pride comes in that actually everybody needs me. The woman would completely collapse if I wasn’t there also not recognizing their own needs, because it’s all about the other one. So, you know, if I must meet the conditions of doing for my partner, but I have no needs.

Christine Okezie (27m 29s):
Yeah. Some co-dependency going on here, compulsive over givers happening here. Right. Otherwise I’ll be rejected if I don’t meet this certain sort of, you know, image of myself. Right.

Ann Gadd (27m 41s):
Absolutely. And so, wow. I give, give, give, give, give while secretly building up a huge amount of resentment because I’m giving to my partner, but I kind of, if I’m not healthy in the gum system, then I’m actually wanting to get back from them. But when they don’t, I start getting resentful

Christine Okezie (28m 4s):
Again. Yeah, yeah. The sexuality, you know, how this shows up in our most intimate relationships in our sexuality is a very powerful mirror or in, you know, giving us insight into why we can have such conflict in this area of our lives, right. It there’s, there’s such a diversity of behaviors and tendencies and without understanding what’s underneath them, it causes. So it can just be a lot of misunderstanding and a lot of inability to communicate. You know, if we don’t understand ourselves, how are we supposed to understand, like, you know what we are like in relationship, right? It’s a, such a, such a big deal.

Ann Gadd (28m 44s):
It’s important to realize that the different ways of expressing our sexuality, none of them are necessarily wrong. It’s just that some people respond to fantasies more and some people might respond to energy, more the moving around of energy and , and some people just want six Stripe as often as they can. The Stripe where, you know, there are all these different ways. And once again, we kind of tended to judge them and make them wrong. So if we can understand that our two partner is really doing all they can for us, but there is perhaps an ulterior motive behind and we can turn to them and say, actually, honey, you’re always doing stuff for me.

Ann Gadd (29m 33s):
What are you really want from this? What can I give to you?

Christine Okezie (29m 39s):

Ann Gadd (29m 40s):
Draw the monitors and get them to the point that they can acknowledge that in fact, they actually do have needs and make it more balanced. Cause you know what it’s like, if you always doing the receiving, at some point, you want to be doing the giving because there’s a huge amount of it is almost receiving when someone allows you to give to them.

Christine Okezie (30m 6s):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and vice-versa right. Someone who was giving, giving, giving in every aspect of their being shows up in their sexuality, you know, learning how to receive, right. And in, in that and learning how to be more vulnerable and, and authentic, you know, in, in these relationships again, it’s, it’s really a very beautiful part of our evolution. I think, you know, Thank you. Thank you. I love this again. You know, how we do one thing is how we do everything, right? So, so many beautiful insights that you can have all a mirror, life being a mirror.

Christine Okezie (30m 49s):
And one of the things I want to have you emphasize because it is important is that, you know, so when we talk about sexuality, there are a lot, there’s a lot of parameters. I think that we tend to fall into, which is, well, you know, do I ha you know, I’m not really happy in my relationship or I’m not in relationship or I’m not sure of my gender preference or, you know, does this apply to me? So I’d love for you to just, you know, demystify and clarify, you know, when we talk about sexuality through the lens of the Enneagram, how expansive it actually is,

Ann Gadd (31m 24s):
I believe that all of us haven’t anima and animus male, and a female signed to ourselves. And so ultimately it’s about the coming together of the male and female side of ourselves, the learning to love the learning, to commune with that higher sense of ourselves through that, through that balancing of the male and female energies within ourselves. So we had, we, that’s the, that’s the prime goal. When we can do that, then we’re able to truly be able to do that with another. But if we, I mean, if we completely out of balance within ourselves, if we carrying around shame and guilt and self hatred and so on, unfortunately we just going to project that onto whichever partner we happen to be involved with.

Ann Gadd (32m 19s):
And then you have two wounded people seldom works to make for a happy relationship.

Christine Okezie (32m 31s):
Yes. Oh, well said, well said, thank you. What’s the message you want folks to take away.

Ann Gadd (32m 38s):
And this is, what’s wonderful about the image Graham is that, although the odd times when I do specify in the book, male and female gender issues, for the most part, it’s about male energy and female energy of which as I proceed, we have both.

Christine Okezie (32m 59s):
Yes. Okay.

Ann Gadd (33m 2s):
You know, we’re all sexual beings. We don’t need another person to confirm that. So being within ourselves, you know, like methadone, snails kind of

Christine Okezie (33m 21s):

Ann Gadd (33m 21s):
snails. So what you’re going to have that. So then really a partner is about exploring male, female side through another person. And it really doesn’t matter where the LGBTQ or anything else in between

Christine Okezie (33m 47s):
Young, old, sexually active or not. Right? No, that’s beautiful. Yes. Really important. Great are certain types more attractive to certain other types.

Ann Gadd (33m 59s):
We often attracted to our shadow side. So if you can say that the aspects of a war or of a one in a seven and seven in a one can be a fascination for that, but

Christine Okezie (34m 16s):
Not always

Ann Gadd (34m 18s):
So two and an eight would be, but I often find eight women tend to marry nine men for instance, and then they might swap wings, but you know, Often eight men don’t really marry nine women. They, they would be more drawn towards the six or even the things we had please sometimes. But these are observations it’s any third Of nines and fives in a relationship together.

Christine Okezie (34m 57s):
Okay. So nine nines, just to clarify nines, we call the sort of peacemakers, right?

Ann Gadd (35m 3s):
So nines choose who they’re going to be friendly with. They more want to keep everyone heck nine, stand to merge with the partner. And

Christine Okezie (35m 14s):
So interesting. And the five is the, kind of the opposite. You, you described that as someone who sort of maybe struggles with connection in a five

Ann Gadd (35m 24s):
Intensely cerebral times. So not more, the more competence and confidence I’ll be. So there’s a sort of, there’s a distance between my heart and my head and body. A lot of is something that I’ve conceived of. You know, fives can feel overwhelmed if a partner, I mean, I’m married to five, I’d be notified for 40 years and it’s just fine because I’m up here writing, renting, and then that’s good. But if I were to go and he’s also an artist, if I were to go and sit in the studio and what she’s every move and say, oh, I need that.

Ann Gadd (36m 4s):
So, you know, they would drive him crazy because he needs that space and that time alone.

Christine Okezie (36m 11s):

Ann Gadd (36m 13s):
You know, certain couplings who needed that kind of information could have a problem with the five. It’s almost like love at a distance.

Christine Okezie (36m 24s):
Okay. I love this. Okay. So, so interesting. And I guess it also depends on the reason why there’s probably no direct, you know, pairing is simply again, just to emphasize, this is a diet, it’s a spectrum and we’re always evolving. Right. And depending on our level of awareness of our tendencies, you know, or ourselves, then that’s going to inform what we’re attracting at that moment in our lives. Right. And what we’re vibing with or not vibing with in our lives. I think that’s important is again, everyone’s always evolving. So along our oh good point or staying or staying unconscious.

Christine Okezie (37m 8s):
Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Gadd (37m 9s):
You know, you know, becoming conscious is an active POS. We ha we have to actively want to become more cautious, which becomes unconscious. We’re not aware as we slide down that slope, not being aware that we do.

Christine Okezie (37m 30s):
So. And what’s, you know, you, you mentioned you’ve been married for 40 years. I’d be really curious. You know, what, how did writing this book affect your own personal relationship? If you would like to share something about that?

Ann Gadd (37m 44s):
I believe that we always are drawn to what we need heating. So whenever I’ve written a book, it’s generally been about something that’s interested me, but from the point of view, because it’s an area I need to work on.

Christine Okezie (38m 5s):
Yes. I love that.

Ann Gadd (38m 9s):
So there’s always that personal thing. And it has, it’s been a journey. You know, the thing that’s, I just love about the immigrant is in understanding your partner through the process, you can bring compassion as opposed to making them wrong. And he’s different from me, very different, but that doesn’t make him wrong. And my difference doesn’t make me wrong. It just that we’ve got different neurosis and both of us are trying to help each other work through them. And that’s, what’s brilliant about working with the stuff with a partner, because if it’s done with compassion, he can say, honey, I noticed since X, Y, Z had happened that you’re starting to slip into, let’s say a reactive mode or a less healthy state of being, and yeah, you got a point, okay, got it.

Ann Gadd (39m 7s):
Consciously change.

Christine Okezie (39m 10s):

Ann Gadd (39m 12s):
So that is, it’s another words if you choose not to point fingers, but rather to use this information, to help each other, you can really work with it and really help each other evolve.

Christine Okezie (39m 24s):
Obviously, given the, you know, your passion and your expertise in this work of knowing thyself, if we can just put it in that term, right. When you have a partner who is at least as much interested in that journey of evolution as well, it can be very, very fulfilling, right? Sexually relationship wise, you know, growth wise. And I think that’s what I’m hearing you say is that it’s just a journey. And if you’re both on it,

Ann Gadd (39m 54s):
Ultimately we’re all trying to work to awaken to the same thing. So what tools we use are it’s irrelevant. Really. It’s just the understanding that that’s what we are here to do

Christine Okezie (40m 10s):
Well said. Well said, thank you so much. And thank you for your honesty and vulnerability on this very, very beautiful topics. I really appreciate it. Is there anything maybe else that I didn’t know enough to ask that you just want to share?

Ann Gadd (40m 25s):
We didn’t, in terms of the withdrawing times, we didn’t take the, the force I’m feeling a bit sad for before.

Christine Okezie (40m 33s):
Oh, let’s not, let’s not forget about the four, the romantic Romeo That’s right. They’re brooding and misunderstood.

Ann Gadd (40m 45s):
Okay. We don’t want to forget the fools because often the, the life experience of fools is about suffering. You know, and life is harder for me than it is for anyone else. And no one understands how much I’m hurting and how painful is experiences. So that’s probably the only type tend to marry each other.

Christine Okezie (41m 10s):

Ann Gadd (41m 11s):
Because both of them are working the sticks of connection, this mysterious understanding of the universe, deep soul connection. And so they find, can find that within each other, the rest of us overweight you shallow,

Christine Okezie (41m 33s):

Ann Gadd (41m 34s):
Really we’re missing it.

Christine Okezie (41m 38s):
What might, what might they ask themselves to raise their self-awareness for, if you were a four,

Ann Gadd (41m 43s):
The Inn, instead of fantasizing about what’s missing from the sexual experience is to actually be with the sex that they’re in or instead of thinking, yeah, the six is good, but I remember back in the past when with this one or that one, and we had this amazing, and they’re not there now they’re back in the past, but whoever so staying in the present and that this isn’t, this is enough, this is, this is deep. This is what needs to happen. And not trying to pull themselves out of that. You know? So it’s, it’s about IX, acceptance of the depth of what is now

Christine Okezie (42m 28s):
Well said. Well said, and again, I think what’s coming up for me is I know that you said earlier, you know, that we are one type, right. But predominantly, but the, we can have so many insights into ourselves by understanding all types. And that’s, what’s really brilliant about the Enneagram. I think

Ann Gadd (42m 47s):
At its best, we’re all types, but we have chosen to find a happy home with neurosis in a particular type, as

Christine Okezie (42m 58s):
Well said,

Ann Gadd (42m 59s):
Yes, we have both. We become more and more all the types, essentially. We embody all the time. So, I mean, I know that rainbow only has seven colors, but imagine you edit it to more at its essence, it’s white light and all those different colors come together to make white lines. And that’s really the journey of the Instagram. It’s not about getting fixated on our time and saying, oh, you’d be me. I’m a seven or five or whatever we happen to be. It’s about, I’m so grateful that I’ve realized what type I am, because now I have a, a tool that I can use to become more of who I potentially am.

Christine Okezie (43m 46s):
Wow. Thank you so much. And that’s beautiful. That’s beautiful.

Ann Gadd (43m 50s):
So if anyone wants to contact me, I don’t do many, but I do do the occasional counseling session. If anyone wants to, I’m not a, I’m not a therapist, but I am a trained I E Q nine coach, if you haven’t asked me that everyone asks is what types make the best.

Christine Okezie (44m 11s):
Yes. You read my mind. Okay. Drum roll please.

Ann Gadd (44m 17s):
Yeah. So my spin sitting on to that is the fact that it’s all determined by our level of health integration, a hundred percent. It doesn’t matter what type you are. If you are not emotionally healthy in that time, it’s not going to make for a brilliant relationship. That being said, we can be attracted to different types for different reasons where we could be attracted to five because we really admire the insight and observation and wisdom. Well, intellect.

Ann Gadd (44m 58s):
Yeah. You know, we could be attracted to a nine because they’re accepting and they’re peaceful and life within this kind of easy it’s, it’s, it’s that don’t put too much stress and pressure on us. And, you know, we could be attracted to a six because we spoken very little about sixes, in fact, because they’re loyal and they accept who we are and they’re responsible and they have this like sense of humor that can be self-depreciating at times it shows a little vulnerability in them. So we can be certain that every type has, has something to offer.

Christine Okezie (45m 43s):
Beautiful. I love that level of integration. And of course, you know, emotional intelligence playing a huge, huge, huge factor in this, in this work, obviously. So yes, yes. Yes. All right. And well, thank you again for your time. This has been a wonderful conversation and I’m sure, you know, I can’t wait to get it out there and have people kind of, you know, maybe feel that much more empowered or at least curious, you know, about what might be a nice way to explore this, this part of themselves. So thank you so much.

Ann Gadd (46m 15s):
There’s a thank you again for having me on the show or is it

Christine Okezie (46m 19s):
All right and take care now. Thank you. Bye bye.

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