Ep#079 How Knowing Your Enneagram Personality Type Can Impact Your Relationship With Food – Ann Gadd

Discovering the “why we do what we do” is fundamental if we want to make real positive changes in our lives. When we strive to be genuinely curious about ourselves we have the opportunity to get underneath behaviors that can seem illogical or contradictory. Such a big piece of health is learning to become a keen observer of our beliefs, attitudes because they are what drive our habitual patterns.

Today’s guest is Ann Gadd, an artist, writer, speaker, workshop facilitator and accredited Enneagram practitioner. The Enneagam is an eclectic personality development system that can help us better understand our core beliefs and motivations.

We dive deep into the role that our personality type plays when it comes to our relationship with food. Ann is the author of over 23 books including “The Enneagram of Eating” How the 9 Personality Types Influence Your Food, Diet and Exercise Choices. Ann and I talk about how seeing our mental tendencies using the Enneagram is a powerful doorway to shifting our eating and exercising habits. Ann believes passionately that understanding our personality type is the first step to recognizing how we unconsciously limit ourselves in spite of the potential wholeness that we all are. She teaches that it’s through deep acknowledgement of our fixations and passions, that we can free ourselves from them. Ann explains how the Enneagram is a powerful tool for having an empowering relationship with food, our bodies and our true selves.

Visit Her Website: https://www.anngadd.co.za

Buy the BooK: “The Enneagram of Eating” How the 9 Personality Types Influence Your Food, Diet and Exercise Choices.

Podcast Transcript

0 (1s):
Welcome to the Soul Science Nutrition Podcast, where you’ll discover that when it comes to your health, you’re so much more powerful than you’ve been led to believe. And now your host, she’s a holistic nutrition and lifestyle coach, chef, author, and Yogi, Christine Okezie.

Christine Okezie (23s):
Hello and welcome to the Soul Science Nutrition Podcast. I’m Christine Okezie. Thanks so much for listening. One of my all time, favorite quotes is by Carl Young and he says, until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. The path of true health and wellbeing is self knowledge discovering the why we do what we do is fundamental. If we want to make real positive change in our lives. When we strive to be genuinely curious about ourselves, we have the opportunity to get underneath behaviors that can seem illogical or contradictory.

Christine Okezie (1m 2s):
So such a big piece of health is learning to become a keen observer of our beliefs and attitudes because they’re what really drive our habitual patterns. Well, today’s guest is Ann Gadd, an artist writer, speaker workshop, facilitator, and accredited any a gram practitioner. The Enneagram is an eclectic personality development system that can help us better understand our core beliefs and motivations. So today we dive deep into the role that our personality type plays when it comes to our relationship with food. And as the author of over 23 books, including “The Enneagram of Eating, How the Nine Personality Types Influence Your Food, Diet and Exercise Choices.”

Christine Okezie (1m 49s):
Ann and I talk about how seeing our mental tenancies using the Enneagram system is a powerful doorway to shifting our eating and exercise habits and believes passionately that understanding our personality type is the first step to recognizing how we unconsciously limit ourselves to the potential wholeness that we all are. She teaches us that it’s through deep acknowledgement of our fixations and passions that we can free ourselves from them and explains how the Enneagram is a powerful tool for having an empowering relationship with food, our bodies, and our true selves.

Christine Okezie (2m 31s):
I can’t wait for you to listen in on our conversation. And if you do like the show, I’d be grateful. If you could please leave a rating and review on apple podcast. And if you haven’t already hit the subscribe button, please do so. It helps people find the podcast easier. Thanks so much and enjoy the episode.

0 (2m 49s):
Hello and welcome to the podcast. It’s really a pleasure to have you here today.

Ann Gadd (2m 54s):
Thank you very much for having me on your show.

Christine Okezie (2m 58s):
So to dive into your, your knowledge and wisdom around the Enneagram system, and I would love if you could just start us off by maybe tell us what led you personally to sort of do this work with these personality typing system.

Ann Gadd (3m 15s):
The truth, I’m a bit of a workshop junkie. So you name it, I’ve done a workshop.

Christine Okezie (3m 22s):
I can totally relate to that.

Ann Gadd (3m 24s):
So I did all the stuff that I, you know, and then I went, you know, astrology and numerology, you know, all that. And then I got involved in Reiki and I did, I became a Reiki master and I did a lot of teaching and also, you know, working on people. And I really enjoyed that. I would never, how can I say minimize that? But then somebody flung an internet book on my doorstep and I read, I read it and I must type myself because that’s what we all need to do in the big, and then a good nurses act, just another personality profiling system, not interested.

Ann Gadd (4m 10s):
And I let it go. So a couple of months later, I go into a bookstore, there’s a sale on, and I see this internet book and I started reading it and I get my husband completely man-cave every, it was like, it was like, I was reading a book that had been popping and I’m like, wow. And he even says those things that he does this, and it was just, it came alive for me because I thought this is information that I thought only I knew about him and he give some book telling me all about it. So I got very excited about that. And then I obviously bought the book, took it home. And I started recognizing, you know, my mother, my sister, and other people in the book, I’m still battled with myself.

Ann Gadd (4m 56s):
Still not sure of what I was. And then I was so enthusiastic. I went to a couple of integrative workshops and thought I was then a six. I think it got, I think, I know I started off as a seven, but I was a seven. And then Russ Hudson came out here and we were fortunate enough to do the four or five day workshop with him. And he signed my book and he said something about, you’re a real trooper. Now in some Instagrams circles, troopers are sixes. So I thought, oh, this is a, this is a subliminal message. That another year he came back to Cape town thinking I was a six.

Ann Gadd (5m 41s):
And I said to him, you know, thanks for that message. And he looked at me and he said, no, and it wasn’t the same level. Basically. You had a broken leg at the time upstairs. You’ve been yourself here. I think that living here but open because I realized by then I wasn’t a seven. And if I wasn’t a 60 minutes and I never thought I could be a nine because nines, I always had understood them to be lazy. And I have painted more than five and a half thousand. And I think we were on a Bart book, number 36 now.

Ann Gadd (6m 23s):
And I thought, no, no lazy, no, not me. I had misunderstood what they mean by the word slot, which is the passion of the, of the night. And it was only when I realized that it’s more about not showing up for yourself than about physically not working that I suddenly realized, oh my goodness, this number that I never wanted to be. He’s in fact what I am. So I literally found myself and then it’s like, all the pieces started falling into place and events in my life. And then I really got it. And it was incredible. It was really wonderful.

Ann Gadd (7m 3s):
And it was like this massive breakthrough. And so I wanted to take that experience and share it with other people, because a lot of people haven’t heard about the Instagrams that potentially they could experience the same, no, all these courses and everything, what did they do? They will try to bring us to a deeper level of self-awareness consciousness and, you know, man know thyself and here was an incredible tool to do that. And I felt, I still feel that it should be shared with a broader audience. And so hence my sidetracking from other writing into the Instagram.

Christine Okezie (7m 46s):
Yes. Yes. Thank you. Yeah, it is fascinating and very powerful. Like you said, it’s a, it’s a wonderful tool to raise our consciousness, to go deeper into self knowledge and self discovery. Now I’m just curious, you know, I’m seeing the image of the anagram and the symbol outs and symbology that’s used. I’d be curious just if you could share, like, you know, where does the symbology come from? Where does the actual design originate from?

Ann Gadd (8m 13s):
Well, the similar itself, because back into ancient Greek time, and even beyond that, they say, even in Egypt, times it went way back then, but it wasn’t a personality profiling system. As we know it, it was a symbol that was really, I could always say a little bit like the tree of life that embodied a man’s journey in the world and beyond. And so they say it was danced by the whirling dervishes. And you know, the there’s the actual word in your ground means Enya, which is nine and gram, which is like a logo or a picture.

Ann Gadd (8m 59s):
So nine picture. And there’s a lot of symbology in the actual symbol itself, a lot of wisdom in the actual symbol. So the personalities that we’re all excited about today, or any very small part of it, there’s a lot more depths to the Instagram than just the personality types, because, well, we’re all basically narcissistic. We love to know more about ourselves. And so that’s where the focus has gone more recently.

Ann Gadd (9m 40s):
It was never the intention for it to be that in fact, the trouser, I think only wrote four words per type as a description. And it was only after him guardian around her and people after him and be interested in, you know, the whole list of people that, that have come since Helen Palmer started, actually, Sandra Maitri started defining those personality profiles, like broadening them out, but it went from those four words to being a much deeper understanding of each of the personality types.

Ann Gadd (10m 21s):
So it’s a very much an evolving system.

Christine Okezie (10m 25s):
Yeah. Thank you. Is there overlap with, cause you said you were deep into astrology and numerology. Did you personally, do you see some echoes overlapping in the system?

Ann Gadd (10m 41s):
You know, years ago I got a contact with a really good astrologer. She actually lives in London and I wanted to write a book with her because I thought there is some connection here. I don’t know enough about astrology to get it. It’s not obvious the 12 senses, nine personality types of the integrator. And so there isn’t an automatic overlay and anyhow, we eventually, we, we couldn’t find that key, but I know it’s there and I’m sure that it’s going to take somebody who has a profound knowledge of astrology, which I certainly didn’t and a profound knowledge of the Instagram to link the two.

Ann Gadd (11m 23s):
I mean, it’s, it’s gotta be there because everything universities in some way, I’m not so sure about numerology, but I definitely think there is some connection And it would be really interesting to find that if you have a certain astrological time, if you like with the moon, that, that, that net, that, that might to being a seven with the six wings or something, But at the moment it’s all theory.

Christine Okezie (11m 59s):
Yes. Yes. Now, I mean, it’s just curious, just a, my own, you know, kind of curiosity around looking at archetypes and, and understanding them in that regard. Now the system that we’re talking about now with the Enneagram is you’re born with your type. Is that right? Just to make sure, I mean like astrology, you know, like numerology, you know, we’re, we’re all, it’s we come into this world with a dominant personality or energetic type, correct? We do.

Ann Gadd (12m 29s):
Okay. And that doesn’t change and that doesn’t change. Other things can change, but not the time. I’m never going to be a full, you know, I’m always going to stay at nine, but my wings, which is the number of either side of me can potentially alter or strengthen or weaken or whatever. And most importantly, my levels of integration, which is how healthy I am emotionally, spiritually. And so how that can alter, and that will affect how my personality appears to others.

Christine Okezie (13m 4s):
Yes, yes.

Ann Gadd (13m 6s):
And the other thing is the subtype. So I don’t want to go into the instinctual types in any detail, but let’s just say the three instincts are types, which is how we function from a very instinctual levels. And in fact, the instincts are a lot stronger in our motivation than in a way our general type is. And those we know me have them stack the stronger one, the one we use less often and the way we use least, and then also can vary in our lives, certainly in strength is ideal would be to be balanced in all three.

Ann Gadd (13m 49s):
So they all were, there were a lot of these subtle variations that can make one person who’s a seven appear very differently to another seven.

Christine Okezie (13m 60s):
Thank you. Okay. So yes. So what’s, what’s important to understand this, this comes the nuance and the depth of the system, right, is there’s if I can say an X, a range of expression in terms of how those may be personality types, you know, heightened or, or become more, more dominant in the, in, in our personality. And then you use the word integration. So to be clear, that’s about sort of, I want to call that good or bad, but just more healthy, more health promoting, more potential, more moving us towards our higher potential versus not correct.

Ann Gadd (14m 40s):
Correct. The one thing yes, absolutely. Right. That, that is where we It’s very often paradoxical. So very often behavior on the higher functioning levels of ourselves can be in complete contrast to the lower functioning levels of ourselves. Put it that way.

Christine Okezie (15m 3s):
Got it. Got it. Okay. Yes. Yes. Thank you. So maybe this would be a useful time to, okay, so we have nine dominant, you know, personality types, and you wrote this amazing book about how they give us insight into our relationship with food, which ultimately is you and I both know in this work is a relationship with ourselves and life itself. So, but we’ll start with some, maybe, you know, some psycho-emotional if I can call it or behavioral patterns that I see as a coach in this work, and then maybe we can lay into, oh, well, that’s the dominant characteristic of a one rather than just go, right. So would that be okay with you?

Ann Gadd (15m 43s):
It would be great. Can I just quickly put a little ad in here for the previous, but there are what we call counter types in the Instagram and in each personality type, dividing it in, in terms of instinctual types further, they will be one of those three instinctual types who will go against the natural windy if you like of that time. So if we take the counter type of the six, their issues with fear, they anxiety types, but there is one time who will try to go opposite and try to do everything they can to prove to themselves that they’re not afraid, but they would come across as not looking like sixes because they’re bungee jumping or, you know, sides of no big Hills.

Ann Gadd (16m 40s):
And they do all this stuff, you know, they being most high waves and whatever. And you think, well, that can’t be a six because they’re fear times. But in fact, it’s a counter time and you find that in all the, all the nine times. So, yeah, sorry.

Christine Okezie (16m 53s):
No, that’s, that’s really deep again. And again, just again, this is not a, this is not a simplistic, you know, I mean, cause we’re talking about ourselves, you know, we’re much more beautifully complex, right. So absolutely I love,

Ann Gadd (17m 7s):
And then likewise, there’s a, there’s a very hard working nine against the,

Christine Okezie (17m 13s):
And you do a wonderful job, you know, in laying out each type in each chapter of the book, you present that in the title themselves. Right. So for example, you mentioned the six. So the six was you, you, you termed the Fight or Flight Feaster or the Courageous Culinarian, is that what you mean by type and counter type?

Ann Gadd (17m 33s):
That’s not so much kind of type it will. It can be. It’s more about, I think the number one, I call the sitting saying to the, have you got

Christine Okezie (17m 46s):
The Self-Righteous Sinner or the Selfless.

Ann Gadd (17m 49s):
Okay. So that would be the one edits lists integrated self, less integrated is integrated itself. So most of the titles indicate how they will appear when they are healthier and not healthy. And I’m meaning healthier in body, mind and emotionally.

Christine Okezie (18m 13s):
Okay. Thank you for clarifying that. Okay. So one of the major issues, you know, that comes up when we talk about a needing to heal our relationship with food, you know, is perfectionism what I’m going to call dietary perfectionism, right? So maybe you can help us use that as the lens to go through what dominant personality type would, you know, do we need to consider if that’s the case?

Ann Gadd (18m 40s):
Okay, well type ones or types. You see things as being right or wrong. It’s, Blackwoods white, there’s no gray in between and they’re look after perfectionism. So when you, after perfectionism, what slips in in the side door is judgment because if I’m trying to be perfect and then I judged myself with someone else’s being not perfect, I’m judging them. And then what follows from that is the next stage, which is criticism. So if I judge myself not to be perfect, then I’m going to start becoming self critical.

Christine Okezie (19m 23s):
That’s a big one, the inner critic,

Ann Gadd (19m 26s):
The inner critic. So it builds up this huge amount of tension because can you imagine if you have this pressure on yourself to be perfect the whole time and we’re not. So this is the potential binge. Each of this is the person who goes for two weeks and only eats five liters leaves and three PS. And the tension builds up to the point that they swing the opposite direction. And then Bingy relieve that stress and relieve that tension and then the self-recrimination and self criticism.

Ann Gadd (20m 8s):
And I’m so imperfect and the self hatred that comes from all that is extreme. But unfortunately, so that in itself triggers up the cycle again, because if I’m so bad in certain them and now need to be even strict on myself and only eat three PS and one legacy, you know? And, and I mean, I’m being facetious, but you know what I’m saying? So you, it, it becomes this roller coaster, but it’s all desperately wanting to be good and, you know, perfect and have the perfect body. Of course, we all know that really does a perfect body exists.

Ann Gadd (20m 51s):
I mean, Bobby dolls have proved that to us because if you really looked like Bobby would look like a weird person. So yeah, there is a bit of you constantly putting that pressure on yourself. And a lot of eating disorders can, can arise, no matter how much weight you lose, you still don’t see yourself as being perfect. So you’ve got to try harder and harder.

Christine Okezie (21m 14s):
This is a huge one. So we’ve got everything from our, you know, sort of body dysmorphia to emotional eating and binge eating, to disordered eating and eating actual eating disorders as part of type one. Number one. Yes. Yes.

Ann Gadd (21m 31s):
Emotional eating sort of tends to slide more into type two type one, but it does, it does tend to sit more with the type two. So it’s great. It’s really hard for one ones because they really want to be good. This is sort of, they feel that they’re this kind of north star that they need to show the rest of us, how to be. So they need to reform the world. That’s what they want to do. They have this nobleness about them, but unfortunately, to reform the one, you have to reform yourself first. And so part of that, so they, they tend to enjoy going on really strict diets or cleansing things like of another cleansers and listings.

Ann Gadd (22m 20s):
And I think it’s not that everyone who does that is a one, but it tends to attract ones because of the, because of the almost suffering that’s involved, which is a noble suffering.

Christine Okezie (22m 39s):
Oh, how interesting. So there’s a bit of martyrdom there.

Ann Gadd (22m 43s):
Yeah. Once again, since we know generally twos are considered to be more than modest, but in one it is that sort of feeling that I am my S my desire to punish myself. It’s more self punishing thing.

Christine Okezie (23m 0s):
Hmm. Wow.

Ann Gadd (23m 2s):
Because I’m not good enough because I’m not doing

Christine Okezie (23m 5s):
So the, the not, enoughness not good enough and, and the perpetual need to, you know, and the striving for that, which shows up again in behaviors like perfectionism and rigidity around food and kind of all or

Ann Gadd (23m 20s):
Nothing, you know, I need to be a role model.

Christine Okezie (23m 23s):
Okay. Yes. Yes.

Ann Gadd (23m 25s):
So I need that anyway. You know, I can do that is if other people look up to me because of how well I stick to my dance and my eating fan and all that stuff,

Christine Okezie (23m 35s):
I’m very hard on

Ann Gadd (23m 38s):
Other people, but I’m hard on myself.

Christine Okezie (23m 41s):
Okay. So that informs again. And I think that this is, is so fascinating because I think all of those expressions of that energetic type are really very much the story that gets perpetuated in diet culture, you know, in terms of striving for that ideal, which we know there is no ideal. So it really does a number on us, you know, mentally, emotionally, and physically, how do we, you know, what, how do we, so we bring that into the light, right? We see it. We go, wow. You know, I’ve got, you know, this is what’s here, and this is what, when I need to heal, I need to, you know, work on what guidance do you have for what, in a type one around this, this very difficult, you know, in a non-integrated expression of it?

Ann Gadd (24m 30s):
I think so. I feel rather than a lot of bringing awareness to it is a big stick in the journey, owning it and recognizing the patterns And then having compassion for oneself.

Christine Okezie (24m 49s):

Ann Gadd (24m 50s):
I understand. I’m really trying to be the spirit of the person, but folded, what is, what is this concept of perfectionism? When is something perfect? You know, if you, if you take the analogy of, okay, I was, I was baking with my son today. We communicate. So you put a cake in the oven, let’s say, or in our case, we put a bench pie. You know, what point is that? Bitch PRI perfect is a perfect, when it was looking beautiful with all the veggies and the crumble on top of it was that perfect was a perfect week in the oven and fumbling nicely, you know, it was a perfect when the vegetables were in the ground and beautiful and crispy and waiting to be picked was, it would never chopped at what point can you honestly say, that’s perfect.

Ann Gadd (25m 44s):
And the thing is, you can’t, we can debate the account government, but because, and so the only conclusion then is that, well, if it’s not perfect at any stage, it must be perfect at every stage.

Christine Okezie (25m 59s):
Oh my goodness. Yes. I love that. That’s beautiful.

Ann Gadd (26m 2s):
And the same goes for ourselves. You know, I went bodyboarding this morning with my friends and, you know, we, we range from, I think about 33 to 76. Fantastic.

Christine Okezie (26m 17s):

Ann Gadd (26m 19s):
Awesome. But the thing was, if you look at us, how do you judge perfectionism in all of us? We’re all so different and we’re all different body types. We’re, you know, one could say that one is perfect because maybe she doesn’t ride a wave as well as that one does. Well, so I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s all of these new neuroses that we have and the outdoors. And I actually, in my mind, a form of insanity

Christine Okezie (26m 47s):
And to just distortion

Ann Gadd (26m 50s):
Because of what Flint is, anything perfect.

Christine Okezie (26m 54s):
Right, right. Thank you. Yeah. And then that’s the whole thing, right? Is that what you talk about a lot in your book, which I think is why the, the system can be very powerful is that it’s, it’s a, it’s a bright light, you know, on the parts of ourselves that, that teach us or help us embody compassion. You know, I, I, in my own work, you know, talk a lot about some compassion, self-love, you know, the shadow and it’s just great to dive into that intellectually, you know, and, and to all that knowledge, but when we use a system like this and this, then discussions like this, it walks us into how important that embodiment is.

Christine Okezie (27m 36s):
Right. Because until you kind of feel the, oh, you know, I see that now. And, and you can really hold yourself from that place of genuine self compassion, then you start to shift it. Right. It’s not like you see it and go, yeah, I gotta love myself to do that. It’s an embodied sense. Just as that beautiful analogy you had, you know, which is like, yes, we see these parts of ourselves that, well, they’re, they’re not so pretty. Right. I wish I wasn’t. I wish I didn’t have to look at that. It’s really hard. But if we do it from a place of just genuine, you know, kind of openness, which is what you’re talking about, you know, then we can heal it.

Christine Okezie (28m 18s):
We can sort of work with and transform it. Yeah.

Ann Gadd (28m 21s):
Yeah, absolutely. And it’s, it also brings us to acceptance a hundred

Christine Okezie (28m 28s):
Percent of

Ann Gadd (28m 29s):
Who we are and, you know, that’s, that’s, that’s the goal. We’re not always trying to be perfect

Christine Okezie (28m 37s):
And we’re not trying to fix,

Ann Gadd (28m 39s):
And we’re not trying to fix. There’s a, there’s an acceptance. And with that comes self love.

Christine Okezie (28m 48s):
So beautiful. Thank you. Okay. So type one, really, really good stuff there. You mentioned type two and just so interesting, cause this is another big one in the work that I do. So you entitled type twos as the giving gorger or the overhead shopper. And so let’s get into martyrdom, let’s get into, you know, everybody else’s needs have to come before my needs, right. And, and I need to work hard and, and, and keep tarp, keep, keep working hard in order to finally arrive at this place that I can finally take care of myself. Right. Is this the type two?

Ann Gadd (29m 22s):
Absolutely. At some point type, two’s got this message saying that they have to give to other people feel other people’s needs, expect what someone else wants in order to be good. Okay. Yes. And so sits of the cycle of second-guessing no, their passion is pride and the pride comes from beliefs that I know what you want.

Christine Okezie (29m 51s):

Ann Gadd (29m 54s):
So what I’m really doing is I’m trying to do all these things for you, so that you love me and that I’m reaching out for love by helping you, which at its highest level is, is beautiful. It’s fantastic. Unfortunately, as it becomes less healthy, my own needs start to get frustrated. So I’m doing all this stuff for you and everyone else, but no one’s doing anything for me. And with that builds this anger and builds this feeling that I’m not loved.

Ann Gadd (30m 33s):
Nobody loves me enough to do stuff for me. The more I said cards, I need this. I say pregnant, whatever. And I don’t get anything back.

Christine Okezie (30m 42s):
Wow. Yes.

Ann Gadd (30m 44s):
So clearly in our minds we convert that into unlovable.

Christine Okezie (30m 49s):
Yup. Okay.

Ann Gadd (30m 51s):
Okay. So as a child, how we got the sweetness of life was when we circled our mother’s breast, breast milk is in fact sweet. And so to use or looking for the sweetness of life that they feel is missing from it. Wow. So they were more inclined to want to eat sweet things. Okay. That kind of thing. And they really trying to fill that hole in their heart that says you are lovable. You are worthy of love. No matter what you do, how hard you work at it, you don’t get love. Wow. Okay. So I just eat my sadness, my pay and my, my, my, my heart just, that’s a comfort food that comes with eat.

Ann Gadd (31m 39s):
It takes me back to that childhood. When I was loved, when I was cycling with my mother and I did feel needed and wanted. And so on,

Christine Okezie (31m 50s):
Oh, this is a big one. Thank you. Tell us about, you know, along those lines related. So maybe if this is a type two, maybe you can expand. If it captures another type, you know, this kind of addiction to busy-ness, it’s what I call it. An addiction to busy-ness like overworking. Gotta do, gotta do you guys, you can’t slow down. You know, which leads to, you know, it really hurts self care, you know, lack of meal planning, lack of meal prep, lack of mindful eating, you know, the ability to tune into the bodies, you know, hunger and fullness and all of that. What, what can you tell us about that energetic type?

Ann Gadd (32m 25s):
Well, I think we’re looking at a three here, possibly a seven as well as well, but it’s focused on the three as we go through them. Yeah. Three somewhere. Got the message. That the only way I’m going to get love is through what I do, not in my performance, how many human doing, not a human being. And I’ll only be loved and appreciated for all the things I do, but it’s doing in, in not in doing for others necessarily, but it’s more achievements. So I need to be a super achiever.

Ann Gadd (33m 6s):
And in being a super achiever, I’ll get the pats on the back and recognition that I’m craving. So as one, three said to me, I’ve read every goal setting book that’s available. I’ve done all the gold plans are, you know, the whole thing. I mean, it’s, it’s all focused on achievement, achievement, achievement, And they either can neglect the body because they th they’re so busy and they’re taken on so much that they’ll just grab phosphate take-aways and with little thought about the effect on their bodies.

Ann Gadd (33m 46s):
And remember these things all have wings. So if you had a three with the two wings, then they might get takeaways, but they get donuts, sweet stuff, you know?

Christine Okezie (33m 54s):

Ann Gadd (33m 58s):
So they would be looking for literally just to feel the hunger. They are, there is a different type of three who would be very focused on what they looked like. So they tend to be singers, movie, actresses, that kind of stuff in the limelight, they, bodies can become very important to them, but they might also neglect them by not eating the right kind of foods by existing on very little, because their focus is on, you know, on, on the achievement and their literally their bodies, their marketing tool.

Christine Okezie (34m 35s):
Fascinating. Yeah, yeah. Such good condition

Ann Gadd (34m 39s):
There, all that kind of stuff.

Christine Okezie (34m 41s):
Yeah. Yeah. And that’s sort of maybe the, when you kind of see, at least on the outward side is someone who’s trying super hard to like, not change even as the years go by. Right. So like you said, cosmetic surgery and, and even more body manipulation and cosmetic manipulation and just really a lot of energy goes into that. Yeah. Yeah.

Ann Gadd (35m 3s):
And the counterphobic type of that is a three was vain about not being been

Christine Okezie (35m 7s):
So fascinating. So someone who’s just like in rebellion almost to an extreme on the other,

Ann Gadd (35m 15s):
She said to me three said to me that when I’m feeling good about my body, I go to this really trendy gym where all the hot guys are and it’s got all the stuff. And when I’m feeling bad about myself, I go to the grotty little local gym when no one recognizes me. And, you know, until I get like

Christine Okezie (35m 34s):
So amazing. Thank you. Okay. One of the things, you know, you talk about a lot is, you know, and this is a big one living too much in our head, you know, really being disconnected. So I call it living from the neck up, you know, we’re too cerebral or we’re just not aware of our, our, our kind of emotional selves. Right. And that’s certainly does get in the way of our behaviors and tendencies around food. So where do we looking at with that one?

Ann Gadd (36m 6s):
Okay. We’ve skipped the full, we’re looking at a five with that one. Okay. So fives on Tinsley cerebral, their motto might be knowledge is power. So they’re one of the few types, but they try to avoid the fear of not being confident or competent by knowing more stuff. Interesting. So they researched stuff and the person who just likes to know all the details of everyone else finds for it. So with all that, but they’ve always have some project that they’re working on and that’s where the focus goes. They disappear for hours down, rabbit holes, you know, and in that space, eating, this becomes really something you have to do so often finds or do things like eat the same thing every single day.

Ann Gadd (36m 57s):
And it doesn’t worry them because it’s just food is there to get full

Christine Okezie (36m 60s):

Ann Gadd (37m 0s):
Eat the pizza from four nights ago, that’s sitting in the fridge, you know, because they want to get back to the thing that they’re working on.

Christine Okezie (37m 10s):
Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Ann Gadd (37m 12s):
So there’s a in, or, you know, the Enneagram is very much about head heart and body. And when we less healthy, depending on our times, we disconnected from two of those, what do you call it? Head heart, two bodies. So the five would be very much unhealthy five and I’m talking on all levels would be disconnected from their hearts and their bodies.

Christine Okezie (37m 42s):
Okay. That’s a big one. Thank you so much. Okay. What if you’re, you know, you find yourself just, you know, being with, you know, someone who loves cooking, you know, but is sort of just a little obsessive or perhaps just, you know, not again, not balanced necessarily. And someone who hates cooking, who has fear of cooking, who has says, I can’t do that. Right. What would that capture?

Ann Gadd (38m 7s):
Well, let’s look at the one who enjoys cooking sevens are often called the epicures of the, of the Enneagram success, quite enjoy cooking as well, but let’s take the seven. Who’s always planning, what’s excitement, different new, they know just where to get this amazing chocolate and where this cheese is made and how it’s made. And they just love to know that stuff. And they love the excitement of trying this new cheese from this place or that new wine from that place or whatever. They’re the kind of hormones of the world.

Ann Gadd (38m 46s):
They don’t always like cooking, but that’s fine because I’m just gonna take it. And they, they appreciate the stimulation if you like, the food gives them. So I mean, life is a buffet. That’s how they liked it. And there’s all this stuff to choose from. And they like that freedom of choice because sevens love freedom. Don’t tell the seven, you can only have this dish on the menu because I’m going to like

Christine Okezie (39m 14s):
That choice.

Ann Gadd (39m 16s):
And then the other one, you said the ones who didn’t like cookies. Yes.

Christine Okezie (39m 21s):
Yeah. Frustrated with cooking or I can’t, I’ve never learned to cook. I don’t want to learn to cook. It’s the biggest obstacle to eating healthy. So I eat, you know, take out all the time.

Ann Gadd (39m 28s):
Yeah. That potentially could be a nine because nine is just, it’s just an effort to work the whole day. And you just want to flop in front of the TV, watch Netflix, whatever. So it can be from a nice perspective, just too much effort. It is easier to do something simple or pull the takeout or whatever. It could also be a five because as I said, it’s just an Eric that the food. So they don’t, you know, you get some fives, like here’s the Blumenthal. He’s a, he’s a brilliant chef who I believe would be a five. So, but then he’s making snail porridge and doing all sorts of things with dry ice and effects and testers made from meat, you know, all this stuff.

Ann Gadd (40m 13s):
So it’s more using artists. I mean, cooking a science,

Christine Okezie (40m 18s):
Looking as science, food is food is almost something outside. There’s not, I don’t feel a whole lot of nourishment going on, you know, or heart connection to the food. I mean, again, I understand that’s a spectrum. We can, it’s good to be a grandma, but what we’re pointing out here is that these are expressions that can, can be really good, but they can be really out of balance too. Right. Okay. And then you talk about in your book and I can’t remember which type, so this is going to be good, but you know, inner emptiness, outward success, but feeling hollow inside, this is something that, you know, hits a lot of, you know, some of the stuff that I work with with my folks is, is they’re, you know, they get stuff done.

Christine Okezie (41m 5s):
They’re high achievers. And on the outside, everything looks really, really good. But when things get a little quiet, they recognize that there’s still just a level of Discontentment, it’s just, they never arrive. They set the goal, they achieve it. But it’s kind of like, ah, you know, where would that be around

Ann Gadd (41m 24s):
That? We’d go back to the three on that one. The goal sitting need for achievement, because if my whole sense of self is built around the achievements and recognition from that achievement, once everyone in the office is there patted me on the back and giving me the increase I’m back two hours before, because it’s, it’s an emptiness, no outside achievement could ever be fulfilling.

Christine Okezie (41m 49s):
Okay. And this was a big thing was this is a big thing with food, right? Yeah.

Ann Gadd (41m 56s):
Yeah. So three is try harder and then it’s empty. It’s like, you know, buying the car you was wanted. Fantastic. He did it. And three months down the later down the road. So what another car, you know, I think the Buddhist school.

Christine Okezie (42m 15s):
Yes. That’s really good. Thank you. Okay. So we’re getting a sense, obviously, you know, that the goal of using the Enneagram system, vis-a-vis what you’ve outlined is to really become more conscious of some of these, I want to say less healthy, you know, parts of ourselves. Yeah. And it can tell us a whole lot about are the reasons why we do what we do essentially. So let me ask you in your own journey and how has it helped you? You know, if you could, you know, maybe share a little bit about what was your takeaway or where do you feel now in terms of how it’s been useful to you?

Ann Gadd (42m 58s):
The Shakespeare said, let me count the ways.

Christine Okezie (43m 5s):
I’m sure. I’m

Ann Gadd (43m 9s):
Sure they’ve many, many ways, but I think what it’s brought me to is that greater level of self-acceptance. So it’s, this is who I am. And with that comes compassion for myself with that comes self observation. So I see myself doing something like fade sitting, cause that’s my favorite. I’m not speaking up for myself. The difference is before it was unconscious. And I convinced myself that, well, I was keeping the PCO on-site it was great. No, I look at it and I say, do I want to be that person?

Ann Gadd (43m 54s):
Do I want to be the person who doesn’t take the stand, who sits in the background and doesn’t want their opinion heard, or doesn’t want to even have an opinion. Doesn’t even know what their opinion is, let alone, you know? And so it bring, it, it, it put some lights on one’s behavior that then you become an observer. Who do you have some beautiful choice to decide? Do I want to stay this person? Or do I want to step into my power and change some of these behaviors that are no longer serving me? They never have served me, which my ego creates it because in some weird way, they thought my ego would help me.

Ann Gadd (44m 42s):
But in fact, it’s doing quite the opposite.

Christine Okezie (44m 43s):
Yes, exactly. Thank you. And so in your book, you have a nice quiz. And so, but as, I guess you pointed all the people that you’ve studied with, this is a wonderful area. There’s lots of quizzes out there. So for people what’s a good place for someone to start with this, let’s say they do a quiz, they do your quiz. Let’s say they see themselves in many different types. You know, it can be really daunting because it’s, there’s a lot of meat going on in each energetic type. What’s some good advice on how to start to explore this and use this as a tool.

Ann Gadd (45m 20s):
Okay. I think we’ve established already that there’s much more to the Enneagram than just knowing of time. Yes. So see, finding your type as a journey. And very often, as in all journeys, the gold is on the journey. It’s not always just waiting at the end for you.

Christine Okezie (45m 38s):

Ann Gadd (45m 40s):
If you feel that you may be a particular type, we’ll explore that time, observe other people, you know, that time doesn’t do they fit with me. Does it work with me? Ask family, friends, colleagues, you, you did, you pick this up about me, you know, read other books. Do other tests do get as much information as you can together because very often you might be, and we’re not really going to go into try and types, but you might have a dominant type in head, heart body. So you might, or you might be picking up on a wing or you might be picking up on one of the points that you go to on the lines of the Enneagram or, you know, there’s so many different things.

Ann Gadd (46m 23s):
So the chances are that you are an aspect of that time that you, that you think that they’re three different times. So for instance, let’s say I’m in nine. And if, if there’s that forms a triangle, but the three and a six wasn’t Robin that I saw myself as being a six, because it wasn’t aspect of myself. And likewise the same as being a three. But in fact I’m a nine, but other people may see this aspects in, in me, or they may even see an eight because that could be my wing.

Christine Okezie (46m 55s):
Interesting. Interesting. Yeah.

Ann Gadd (46m 58s):
It’s essentially we all types. So if it’s not a race to that, then you can find your type. And by the mug that says I’m an Instagram New York.

Christine Okezie (47m 10s):
Okay. Well done check,

Ann Gadd (47m 12s):
Identify on your Rosis and you don’t want to stay stuck in that. So you don’t, you don’t, I mean, so much of what’s going on in the internet today is people waving flags and be proud of whatever type they are. It’s like saying I’m a, this I’m an Albuquerque prison. Oh no, I’m

Christine Okezie (47m 35s):

Ann Gadd (47m 38s):
Why would you want to be in that prison? Yes,

Christine Okezie (47m 41s):
Yes, yes, yes. Okay.

Ann Gadd (47m 42s):
Liberating yourself from the prison that you put yourself in. So to get to the point where you are essentially all types,

Christine Okezie (47m 53s):
That’s really beautiful actually. Right? Cause that is I guess the best way to see ourselves as maybe striving for that true integration, that true, authentic integration being in alignment with our design and its highest expression. Right? Yeah. Thank you. Well, wonderful.

Ann Gadd (48m 13s):
Yeah. So we can feel like the melancholy, this other food feel the intensity of their feelings, you know, so that we can feel the power of an eight. So we can, you know, we can reach the level of acceptance that nines often have. And so we could, we can go along and take the, the, the, the evolves parts of all the numbers and embody those.

Christine Okezie (48m 39s):
I love that. Yeah. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. Was there any question maybe that I didn’t know enough to ask? Or is there something maybe you want to share that you’ve got going on that, you know,

Ann Gadd (48m 52s):
I’ve yeah, I’ve just in next year, I’m bringing out a book on the Instagram and parenting. Wow. She looks at the different how we show up as parents

Christine Okezie (49m 4s):

Ann Gadd (49m 6s):
The Instagram, which looks at how we shop sexually and how we hold ourselves back from a full exceptional lip expression.

Christine Okezie (49m 15s):
We’ll have you back on the podcast for that. And can’t wait to have you on the podcast for that.

Ann Gadd (49m 22s):
There’s nine Kitty’s books that explain what I’m really trying to do with the kids books is to give kids to understand that we’re all different, but different doesn’t mean wrong.

Christine Okezie (49m 33s):
That’s so beautiful. I love it. I love it. Just, you know, expansion of our consciousness, appreciation of, you know, showing up as our genuine selves. It doesn’t get much better than that. So thank you for all the work that you do around that. You do it in such a beautiful artful literal way. And it’s been a pleasure to have you on the show today. So thank you much. Take care.

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