Ep #068 Exploring Consciousness and Healing With Technology Assisted Meditation – Holly Copeland MA, HPC, NMI-2
Today’s episode we take a fascinating dive into the intersection of modern technology and the ancient practice of meditation. My special guest today is Holly Copeland a cognitive performance and meditation coach who uses neuro- and biofeedback technologies and meditation to help people rewire their brains for calm and clarity. With a 25-year background as a research scientist, Holly has become a passionate expert on the use and effectiveness of technology-assisted meditation, and wearable devices. She co-founded and leads HeartMind Alchemy Lab, a community of biohacking and consciousness enthusiasts and meditation practitioners dedicated to giving people powerful tools to live from a state of awakened awareness, empowerment and authenticity.
Learn More: Holly Copeland
Neuromeditation: Neuro Meditation Institute
Suggested Books / Resources:
“Meditation Interventions and the Brain” By Jeff Tarrant, Ph.D., BCN
‘The Energy Codes” By Sue Morter
“Becoming Supernatural” By Joe Dispenza
“Tuning the Human Biofield” By Eileen McKusick
Julia Mossbridge / Institute of Noetic Sciences
Suggested Meditation / Neuro Feedback Wearable Devices:
Virtual Reality Meditation App: Tripp
Non Dual Mindfulness and Meditation:
Welcome to the soul science nutrition podcast, where you’ll discover that when it comes to your health, you’re so much more powerful than you’ve been led to believe. And now your host, she’s a holistic nutrition and lifestyle coach, chef author, and Yogi, Christine OKC.
Christine Okezie (23s):
Hello, and welcome to the soul science nutrition podcast. I’m Christine Okezie. Thanks so much for listening. So I think we’re living in a time where the lines between psychology, neuroscience and spirituality between the physical and the nonphysical between mind and body have become more blurry than ever before where the teachings of the sages and the mystics are being translated in the language of modern scientific research. It’s an exciting and stimulating time when it comes to the world of personal health and transformation. So in my world, and if you’re listening to this podcast, probably yours as well, the bridge, when it comes down to it is the space of the exploration of consciousness.
Christine Okezie (1m 6s):
And so on today’s show, we take a fascinating dive into the intersection of modern technology and the ancient practice of meditation. My special guest is Holly Copeland, a cognitive performance and meditation coach who uses neuro and biofeedback technologies and meditation to help people rewire their brains for calm and clarity with a 25 year background, as a research scientist, Holly has become a passionate expert about the use and effectiveness of technology, a stitched meditation and wearable devices. She’s the co-founder and leader of heart, mind, alchemy lab, a fabulous community of biohacking and consciousness, enthusiasts, and meditation practitioners dedicated to giving people powerful tools to live from a state of awakened awareness, empowerment, and authenticity.
Christine Okezie (2m 1s):
I can’t wait for you to listening into our awesome conversation. And if you do like the show, please feel free to leave a rating and review on apple podcast. And if you haven’t hit that subscribe button, please do so. So it helps people find the podcast easier. Thanks so much and enjoy the episode. Hey Holly, welcome to the podcast. So great to have you here today.
Holly Copeland (2m 22s):
Thanks Christine. I’m so excited to be here
Christine Okezie (2m 25s):
Let’s jump in and geek consciousness, spirituality, and health. Why not? Right. It’s a good thing to do my very favorite topics. Yeah, I love it. So I would just love to know though you’re at your path has been really interesting. I’d love to know, you know, what was your path to become so passionate and deep in, in the space of consciousness, mindfulness, personal health?
Holly Copeland (2m 49s):
Yeah, well like a lot of people, it came from my own personal story. Yes. And I will say that on a consciousness, spirituality, I, I hooked into that very early. So I have very early memories of asking those big questions, like who am I? I remember turning to my mom and like pulling my skin and being like, who am I? What is wow, like seven years old? Oh my God. And then I really geeked out in the metaphysical worlds in the mid, in my teens. So it was really into spirituality.
Holly Copeland (3m 30s):
Yeah. And so that has been resonant. And then I took this when I went off to college, I got into the sciences. And the other thing that I really had a love for and connection with was nature. And I was really just decided that my calling at that point when I was in my early twenties, was to work, you know, work, to save the planet, you know, for an easy way to put it. So that landed me in the job with the nature Conservancy as a scientist. And I was doing computer mapping, GIS mapping. And I did that career as a conservation scientist for almost 20 years.
Holly Copeland (4m 10s):
And a few years ago, I started to question all of that, whether that was what I wanted to do forever. And I would say that the thing that really couple of things were coming together, but one of them was just honestly, my great despair for the planet and this feeling of like, there’s never enough. I can absolutely never do enough. And it was breaking my heart to be honest. And, and so I was starting and that was leaning to lending to burnout. Yeah. Then I got really sick. So I actually got mold poisoning.
Holly Copeland (4m 51s):
And so, and it was a long journey and it took me a long time to figure out six, eight months later with some good doctors and functional medicine specialists. I was able to figure out that I had mold, I got an infrared sauna. I did water fasting. I did all these, you know, health kind of fringe things. But I, I F I healed myself from the mall. And when I got better from the mold, I think it capital that health crisis catalyzed this huge change as it often does for people it did for me too. And I came out of it and I was just like, I just don’t think I want to do this work anymore.
Holly Copeland (5m 32s):
As much as I love the Conservancy and believe in environmental conservation, I just felt like my path was, was leading me somewhere else. And it led me into, I had always been a, a biohacker and kind of a health geek and that kind of thing. And I, the key pivotal moment was I decided that I really was tired of the narrative self, this thing in your brain. Yeah. Barking at you all the time. Like I was over her and tired of her, and I really wanted to learn to get out of my own head.
Holly Copeland (6m 12s):
Yes. Yeah. Like I’d taken health seriously. And I take an eating and diet and all that seriously, but I’d never really crack the nut of meditation and crack the nut of my own consciousness. Okay. Okay. And I wrote at the top of my journal in January of 2018, you know, my rewire, my brain project, what a great project. That’s the main thing. Wow. I started to, I started to learn about meditation and the brain and brainwaves and brainwave science. I’ve read a few pivotal books. One of them was a book called the open focus brain by less fair me and I learned about brainwaves and started listening to binaural beats.
Holly Copeland (6m 57s):
And I got a device called the news device that tracks your brainwaves. And it’s like neurofeedback for meditation. And I started to do that half hour every day. And, and okay. So listening to binaural beats and I started at king, like, like, I actually could feel that narrative self start quieting down and there was more space in my brain for just fall. Wow. Wow. I like
Christine Okezie (7m 28s):
The way that you took the science, you, you know, you, you, the most familiar route or a resource that came across your path in the beginning was very tech oriented and it continues to be kind of, you know, you’re really interested in sort of that hacking nature of consciousness and the brain, what exactly, you know, you have a beautiful niche now in the work that you do and you call it neuro meditation coaching. So I’d love for you, you know, with this background now, how did you, what is neuro meditation? What’s the process behind that?
Holly Copeland (7m 58s):
Yeah. Great question. So neuro meditation is actually a word that was coined by Dr. Jeff Tarrant based out of Eugene, Oregon. And he wrote a book about meditate. I think it’s called meditation interventions for the brain and, and he actually coaches, and you can get a certification in neuro meditation coaching, which is what I did fascinating. And the idea is that not all meditation is the same or has the same effect on the brain clarify. And so many people are familiar with traditional mindfulness. So we’re kind of watching our thoughts, but what he noticed coming at it from a scientific point of view is that that type of meditation reduces our, brings down the beta brainwaves in the brain.
Holly Copeland (8m 49s):
And we have more of the calm feta brainwaves in the brain, which is really helpful because can start to shut off that default mode network, that barky voice in your head that everybody’s trying to get rid of. So super great. But if you’re somebody who has ADHD or add, and you have issues with focus, and actually that’s not the best type of meditation to do, but actually a focus type of meditation, like focusing on the breath is an activating type of meditation that raises frontal that actually that’s an issue with SEDA in the front prefrontal part of the brain and lack of control.
Holly Copeland (9m 29s):
And so a focus type of meditation is actually very good for those issues for people with, so this is an example of what neuro meditation does. It’s really trying to understand the client and what their issues are and, and work with them to give them a type of meditation that will best benefit them. Okay. That’s
Christine Okezie (9m 48s):
Great. Yeah, there is no, you know, one flavor of meditation and that’s one of the things I think, you know, we work with, you know, we share in our work is, you know, we want to get people to find a practice that fits their unique lifestyle that fits their unique sort of predisposition. And so I work with a lot of people, as I’m sure you do, who have a very, who have tendencies towards anxiety or tendencies towards rumination. And it’s so interesting that you say that is that the type of meditation that really resonates with them is more of, you know, an active practice, you know, making, combining it with breath work, for example, combining it with movement, for example.
Holly Copeland (10m 29s):
Right, right, right. Giving their busy brain something to actually focus their attention on. Yes. Yes, exactly.
Christine Okezie (10m 37s):
Yeah. I think I read a great article on sound healing with you. And so, you know, for example, mantra meditation, and that regard another beautiful example of, you know, working with the busy racing mind, but you use tech devices. So you mentioned the muse. So curious about these things like, so what’s out there. I know you’re, you’re kind of deep in, in checking all this stuff out. That’s out in the gadgetry world.
Holly Copeland (10m 58s):
Yeah. I love, I love gadgets. I mean, I just feel like in this day and age, you know, why not, if there’s technology that can help break the barrier to meditation and that’s what muse did for me, it was like, I was that person who was like, I can’t just sit down for 20 or 30 minutes. I just don’t even know if I’m doing it right. And that’s what muse gave us was the I’m going to give you feedback. So you know, what a quiet mind feels like. Yes. And that one thing just changed everything for me, it was a total game changer to have that feedback, to know what a quiet mind felt like.
Holly Copeland (11m 38s):
Cause now I knew what I was going for and you know, I could replicate it. Right. Interesting.
Christine Okezie (11m 44s):
So in other words, it, it was a great starting point, but not necessarily something that it opened the door, it didn’t narrow your meditation. Pride opened the door to saying, okay, that’s what I want to go for.
Holly Copeland (11m 55s):
Exactly. I tell people it’s like training wheels for meditation. You know, you don’t just get on a bike and start riding a fat, fastest, you know, most, you know, technical bike, you start with a beginner and training wheels if you’ve never written before. And, and so muse for me was, was training wheels. And for clients I work with, I feel like that’s, that’s its role. I also use it in other ways. I’m a little more on the techie side. I don’t want to get too much into, unless you want to go there, but recording brainwaves and then actually in the consciousness, it can, you can map your state shifts. So you can see when you go into deeper meditation states wow.
Holly Copeland (12m 34s):
With this tool, and that enables you to like, it’s one thing to feel like you’ve gone deeper in meditation, but it’s another thing to actually see it recorded on a graph and you can point to it and you’d be like, yes, that felt different. And look, my brain shifted there. Look at that, jump in gamma, look at that. Jump in data. Yes. That validation is so crucial. So yeah, actually I think that’s just another way to really relax
Christine Okezie (13m 4s):
Our mind. Our thinking mind is actually when we see that data and we get very cognitive about it. Right. It’s it’s for some of us that really resonates. Like I like the science of meditation. I like the science, you know, of the mystic, that kind of thing. So yeah. It’s interesting.
Holly Copeland (13m 17s):
Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah, exactly. And then I work with some other devices. There’s a new one on the market called Mindy that I’m super excited about. It measures it’s a neurofeedback device where, so it’s a headband that you put it on, really lightweight, really nice form factor. And it measures blood flow in the front of the brain. And so it leads you through practices of focused attention. And then it gives you a score for how you, as you’re going along for how you’re improving your blood flow in the front of the brain, based on it made it made in Sweden really cool product. Wow. And then other ones are more active.
Holly Copeland (13m 58s):
I’m actually giving you vibrational healing. So there’s one called the Neo rhythm. That’s a pulsed electromagnetic therapy. And it’s, what’s a light pulse that you it’s a headband that you wear. Okay. And it, it has different settings. So everything from like helping with sleep, to helping with meditation. So actually actively giving you feta brainwaves. So your brain is in training to those state of brainwaves. Wow. It, it also has a mental capacity or improvement of mental capacity. So it gives you helps you focus and you move it to different parts of your head depending on what’s, you know what you’re trying to do.
Holly Copeland (14m 42s):
Wow. Yeah. So that, one’s pretty cool. And maybe last one I’ll mention is a wristband called Apollo that I like to describe as like a hug, like a hug for your body all the time.
Christine Okezie (15m 2s):
That’s amazing. Now are these devices like, where do you get them? Just we’ll put out the links and everything in the show notes, but I’m just curious, like, are they just regular retail type thing?
Holly Copeland (15m 12s):
Probably. Totally. And most of them are they’re in that kind of sweet spot between, you know, 250 and $500. Okay. Okay. So pretty accessible. Wow. Yeah.
Christine Okezie (15m 23s):
And I’m just curious, do you know, since you, I know you’re you speak to a lot of the people who are involved in, in, in this area, are they being used on any kind of, I dunno, institutional level, are they being like, you know, done in schools or hospitals or in, in different kinds of institutional settings, like ma just sounds like there’s could be so much going back to our earlier discussion of sort of having the social mission of, you know, meditation and mindfulness out there in the world. There’s so much promise, you know, if we could deliver this on a larger scale.
Holly Copeland (15m 54s):
Yeah, absolutely. So another one I’ll mention is called focus, calm, and they’re working with athletes. So they’re working with Olympic teams and tennis teams, NASCAR racers, and they’re also, we’re working with schools. So they’re, they’re that institutional they’re making their way into schools and hospitals as well. Really cool company. Yeah. I have the pleasure of getting to interview a lot of the CEOs of these companies. And so I get some insight into the people who are really, like you said, what they’re trying to do is make this type of brain training or assistance widely available.
Holly Copeland (16m 35s):
So people can see that, you know, really common conditions like anxiety and stress and, you know, ADHD, I mean, which have been studied well in the literature with things like neurofeedback as being really helpful. And they’re trying to make devices that can be broadly accessible, not too expensive and, and used in school and institutional settings. So
Christine Okezie (17m 2s):
That’s wonderful. That’s wonderful actually going into that, you know, you know, what do you like to share about some of the health benefits, you know, in your own words, you know, how does mindfulness meditation, you know, reaching these different brain states? How, what kind of conditions can it heal or prevent?
Holly Copeland (17m 19s):
Yeah. I mean, the, I can’t really think of something that meditation, isn’t all of the above with the caveat that, that there’s always kind of a group of people saying, some people experienced negative effects and sure. Those are known and understood. And I think really because meditation allows you to relax. Yeah. And because that can bring up pain, you know, stored pain in the body. So we need assistance from mental health professionals or coaches to process pain that comes up as the result of relaxing. But what I would say is that relaxation, a relaxed mind is our natural state.
Holly Copeland (18m 6s):
And so it’s, you know, that yes, you may need some help getting through some of the challenges, but that it’s like, well, well worth it because, because we’re really, from my view, we’re returning the brain to its natural state that this like crazy Western mind that never shuts off. It’s always on, it’s always doing the next thing. Isn’t natural. We weren’t, we weren’t designed to be that way. And that’s where we’re in all so much pain. That’s why we’re stressing anxiety. Isn’t your natural state. It’s, it’s a result of a society that doesn’t know how to turn off. Hmm Hmm.
Holly Copeland (18m 47s):
That, that, that puts us in a school system. That’s pushing us constantly to be successful. Some, you know, societal model of what success looks like. Thank you. Right. And for a lot of people, you know, for some people that works and they’re, you know, and it’s fortunate that those are the people that works, but for a lot of people that doesn’t work. Yeah. No. And they’re asking, you know, they’re looking for permission. I mean, I think we should be giving them permission honestly, to live in a more natural, relaxed state. And so meditation for me helps return us to where we were meant to be calm, clear, open-minded joyful at ease yes.
Holly Copeland (19m 40s):
Enjoying life. Yes. And that we should all be giving each other permission for that. Right. You know, that’s not something we have to apologize for, to be happy in the world. That’s something you have to earn, right? Yeah. No. Yeah.
Christine Okezie (19m 59s):
And it’s that thinking or that knowing, I should say, you know, that is sort of what the sages and all of ancient wisdom kind of has us, you know, working and endeavoring to remind ourselves, you know, that’s that heart, you know, heart centered living, that’s that Buddha nature, if you want to even go so far as to use that terminology. So I think it is quite fascinating that, you know, you are, you know, actively seeing the, the science, you know, really kind of running towards that, that goal. You know, I mean, not just the study of it, not just the research, but the actual technology and the devices that are being innovated.
Christine Okezie (20m 42s):
I think it’s just a beautiful place to kind of, you know, take this perspective on how we’re just going to, hopefully for it to be healthier and happier in this regard.
Holly Copeland (20m 51s):
So, well, thank you. I mean, I’m just taking the Dalai Lama’s lead because he’s all about the science neuroscience of meditation. That’s
Christine Okezie (20m 59s):
Right. True. That’s true. That’s so true.
Holly Copeland (21m 1s):
Yeah. Oh my gosh, wonderful. You know, scientists who are working with him,
Christine Okezie (21m 9s):
Who is that? Right. Do you know that he’s sort of really involved behind the scenes and a lot of these types of innovations?
Holly Copeland (21m 15s):
He absolutely is Richard Davidson lots. And I’m trying to think of some of the others off the top of my head, but he’s very much been a proponent of the neuroscience of meditation. Yeah.
Holly Copeland (22m 8s):
Right, right, right.
Christine Okezie (22m 10s):
Right. And, and, and, and I think that’s one of the things I love about, you know, this conversation is because there are, it’s a wider net, it’s a wider invitation, you know, to come into again, you know, just finding a means to get our biology or biochemistry, you know, back in a better place. I mean, that’s really what it comes down to. You know? So whether that’s workforce productivity or relationship or individual health concerns, you know, heart, health, brain health, all of it. So many ways in so many ways to get into seeing the benefits. So I love that. What is, what’s a really good, I guess, invitation or inspiration that you do.
Christine Okezie (22m 51s):
How do you get people to actually be interested in a practice of meditation? Because it’s one thing to try it one and done, but how do you help people develop a practice? Because that’s really the, the gold, right. Is developing some level of consistency with the stuff we all know it works, but it’s consistency that really matters. So what is our tips for helping people with this?
Holly Copeland (23m 13s):
Yeah. I, the number one by far, most important thing that you need to have front and center is your intention. Your why all active in everything. We do stems from a clear, why, why am I doing this? If you’re not clear on your why? Yeah. You may do it for a week or two, but it tends to fizzle, right? Yes. That’s why, when I wrote my rewire, my brain project across the top of my journal, it was so powerful because I like hell bent on getting out of my own mind. Nice.
Holly Copeland (23m 54s):
And I think you have to bring that level of determination. Honestly. I mean, the people for who it works is because they’re like this, I’ve done this other way for 40 years. Maybe I should try something else. Brilliant. No, I think that you do need to bring a level of commitment and hell bent on this too,
Christine Okezie (24m 14s):
To you, do you have to bring a level of really conscious commitment to the process? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like anything else when it comes to taking responsibility for our circumstances, you know, our health, our wellbeing, it does, it starts with that big why I love that. That totally resonates with me. So yeah.
Holly Copeland (24m 31s):
Yeah. The big why. And then, and then, you know, what follows from there? I guess I think confidence in the method you’re doing, which is, I think where coaches and teachers come in, because we help people believe that, like, this is, this is gonna work for me. You know, I really that’s why this science, I think that’s where the science comes in because it gives people the confidence that this works, you know, when you read that, oh, this Harvard study showed that, you know, eight weeks of meditation changes your brain. Well, you know, if, if that, if that’s what that Harvard study showed and it was, oh, it was 30 minutes a day. Well, if I do 30 minutes a day, you know, I have every reason to believe that it will change my brain too.
Holly Copeland (25m 15s):
Yeah. Yeah. And so I do a lot of communicating that kind of science to people. So they believe and feel resolved that this will work for them
Christine Okezie (25m 25s):
So important. So intention and confidence, I love that makes sense. Yeah. Yep.
Holly Copeland (25m 30s):
And then a good, and then a good process to follow. And, you know, there are many ways, and I think speaking from my personal experience, it’s confusing world out there with meditation. Yeah.
Christine Okezie (25m 43s):
There’s a lot to choose from. That’s for sure.
Holly Copeland (25m 45s):
Yeah. It’s a big book bay and it’s hard to know where to start in this buffet. Yeah.
Christine Okezie (25m 51s):
So actually, I’m curious then again, you know, what is your, what is, what is, what’s it, you know, what’s lighting you up these days. What have you kind of found to be your practice or your
Holly Copeland (26m 1s):
Go-to? So I fell in love with really two things. The first one was something called subtle energy meditation that I learned in a subtle energy meditation class. And they work with practices like learning to breathe in the central channel. So that, that was revolutionary for me when I learned, which I knew nothing about when I started this, you know, just the foundations of Korea and other types of Hindu meditation, you know, squeezing that, squeezing that root chakra and then pulling the energy up and that moving of energy through breath work was so powerful.
Holly Copeland (26m 47s):
You know, Joe Dispenza uses it now as a core of what he does. I mean, a lot of people, us mortars and other person I’m a fan of. And so that really tapping into that product, she energy and, and learning how to work with it in meditation. Absolutely.
Christine Okezie (27m 3s):
I mean, I, you know, I, I Marvel, I started, I found Joe Dispenza and then I found Sue Morter and then I became, and I found Kundalini and I became a Kundalini yoga practitioner. I said, oh my goodness. Again, talking about the modernize Western and, you know, interpretation of a very ancient practice. So interesting that you were kind of on the same path, but yeah. Yeah, that’s my jam.
Holly Copeland (27m 29s):
Absolutely. I love that. I love that. And then the other rabbit hole that I fell down, which arguably is even bigger for me now and is probably the core of what I teach is a non dual practices. Nondual awakening practices. So I fell down a non dual rabbit hole through teachers like Loch Kelly and Rupert Spire and Moogy, which is, you know, it’s an inquiry based meditation. So this gets at the core of who are we? You know, when I ask you Christine, like, who are you? You know, what, what comes, you know, what comes forth?
Holly Copeland (28m 12s):
And in nondual practices, we take very seriously this idea of this question of who you are. And you very quickly notice the very first pointing, which is, I am not my thoughts. I am not my body. Right. I can’t be them because something is aware of my thoughts. Yes. I can’t be that. Right. And we start to work with this idea that there is this ground of being that we all are it’s essential beings, essential nature that knows everything that’s happening. Yes. And absolutely.
Holly Copeland (28m 52s):
And we keep getting deeper into that, to living from the core being that we are the, the infinite, timeless being aware. Yeah. And even
Christine Okezie (29m 5s):
An awareness. Thank you. Yeah. In Kundalini, we call that just my Satnam. You know, I am, you know, because the minute I try to find language for it, I’ve kind of lost it. You know what I mean, in the sense that it’s beyond, you know, this, the, the constraints of, of describing what we are with words, it’s an essence, and it’s a true nature, you know, if you will, very powerful, very powerful.
Holly Copeland (29m 29s):
Totally. Yeah. And I love, I found this over and over again. It’s like, no matter what, which of these ancient wisdom traditions you turn to, they all point to the same, do they point to the same? Which is that you are infinite divine consciousness and I am, and we’re not separate, nor is anyone listening that we’re all in inter interconnected, infinite divine consciousness.
Christine Okezie (29m 55s):
Yeah. The one, the oneness is, is such a fascinating thread to look at, you know, being weaved through all thousands and thousands of years of tradition, healing, traditions, all of it. Very, very beautiful. Yeah. So I would love to ask you then, you know, you know, from, from where, where you sit, you know, where do you see that evolution of that consciousness around our oneness, around our web of interconnection we’re in 2021, what’s your outlook. I’d love to hear that.
Holly Copeland (30m 31s):
It seems that, so if we interconnected divine consciousness in this quantum physics kind of comes to catch up with that. Right. And I really subscribed to the electric universe theory that I first learned about from Eileen McKusick. Cause I studied biofield tuning and do biofield tuning work. Excellent. And yeah, and this sort of old model of, of a material universe and the material world is an outdated model. It’s not the true model. And in fact, Albert Einstein himself was pointing to that. Right. And, and as science catches up and we start to actually question, what’s been, you know, untouchable in Western society for, for now over a hundred years, right?
Holly Copeland (31m 19s):
Yes. And we start to bring forth this consciousness is the primary is what’s primary in the universe, which is first, which is what we are. It feels like more and more people are awakening to that truth. And that, because all connected actually it’s quickening because, you know, each it’s that hundredth monkey, you know, we’re connected in a morphogenic fields. And when I learn it, actually that knowledge is spreading out in the field because I’m not a single person in a single body. And as you learn it, you are, and we’re all lifting the, you know, we’re all lifting up the boats that’s right. And this one ocean.
Holly Copeland (31m 59s):
And so I think that where we’re going is, is fairly quickly we’ll, we’ll see. But I think that will be more and more accepted and more and more the convention will be questioned and that will start to become more and more people’s reality. And when that happens, when people really feel and understand that they’re not separate, then every interaction changes, right. Because it’s not, you’re not the enemy, the other person, isn’t the enemy. And if they disagree with you on whatever the vaccine or politics or whatever, when you bring judgment in your own heart for that person, you’re just, you know, you’re, it’s just, you’re just bringing it to yourself.
Holly Copeland (32m 52s):
Christine Okezie (32m 56s):
Gets very heady, but yeah. No, thank you. I, I I’m right with you on, on that perspective. And I think that’s the perspective that keeps everything else in perspective, ironically enough, you know? Right. Yeah.
Holly Copeland (33m 10s):
And then we realized that, you know, love is actually the fabric of the universe, which it is and which we’re all just waiting to recognize beautiful that it’s, that’s actually all that’s here. Yeah.
Christine Okezie (33m 25s):
Yeah. I never returned to all of, to that knowing to, you know, constantly endeavoring to connect to it because we lose it. You know, it’s like, it’s like, it’s like, you know, I think of it as a frequency and, and so we use mindfulness and breath work and yoga and all these tools, you know, that we have to constantly attune ourselves to that, knowing that frequency it’s always there, but you know, life can get lifey and, you know, we get off balance, you know, we kind of forget, and we go back into our little lives and our little personalities and, and then we have to do the work of coming back and remembering and reconnecting. And, and that’s why it is a practice in that regard a lifelong, in my opinion. So any lifetimes probably before we ever get there, so to speak,
Holly Copeland (34m 12s):
Probably it’s already here. Oh, you know, all the time. So it is.
Christine Okezie (34m 15s):
And, and, and that in and of itself, you know, it’s funny, I I’ve heard many teachers of mine talk about, you know, you’re a coach too, so you’re, we walk this balance between the work that we do around health and wellness and wellbeing. It’s not so much like fixing a problem and self-improvement, and, you know, becoming our best selves and, you know, kind of, you know, solving our problems, so to speak, but it’s really about unlearning. And it’s really about kind of remembering and going back to what what’s always been here, but just got covered up maybe a whole bunch of different ways. Right, right.
Holly Copeland (34m 52s):
Totally. Yeah. I completely agree. And, you know, and I remember several years ago before some of the realizations that I had of like hearing people talk the way I talk now and just being like, yeah, that sounds great. But it doesn’t, it doesn’t, I don’t know how to get there. And my, my experience is that it’s because you’re trying to get there in your conceptual mind. You’re trying to understand it in your conceptual mind. Okay. Conceptual mind, can’t get there. Yes. It actually has to be your lived experience. You, you know, that you really feel and can touch into this true nature that is each of us.
Holly Copeland (35m 33s):
So, you know, anybody that’s listening, you know, feel, allow your sort of, I, you know, the memories of the past to drop away, allow the future to drop away and just feel into this essence that you are this true. That the one thing you can’t drop. Right. Beautiful. You know, and just feel the vibration of that, the liveliness of that, the infinite unbounded nature of that. And it’s as simple as it can be as simple as just returning to that in every moment that you remember.
Holly Copeland (36m 15s):
And like you said, it’s a practice, but if you just feel that, and really, so that’s your experience. Yes. You can just start to in little bits, just start to live from, from that, connecting into that, which is what you really are, which is the ground of your being. And when that was pointed out to me, by my teachers, and I really felt it as the ground of my being then like the sky, this infinite nature that was there, then I could start to see that all these, all this impermanence of life, all the play of all the stuff. Yes. You know, it’s just the playing field of consciousness.
Christine Okezie (36m 57s):
I like the way that you emphasize the embodied nature, you know, of this work so much. So you can even point to changes in brain states to really identify that this is an embodied experience that we’re talking about. You know, it’s not just philosophy or, or, you know, teaching that’s useful as a roadmap, but at the end of the day, I think the invitation for meditation and the way that you practice and the way that you involve people in the practice is you want them to have a lived
Holly Copeland (37m 28s):
Experience of it,
Christine Okezie (37m 30s):
You know, a sensory experience of it. So critical. Yeah. Yeah. So you mentioned so many resources that have helped you along your way, and we’re sure to include a lot of that information in the show notes, but, you know, I’d be curious like right now, like what’s something that, that you’re researching. That’s kind of got your attention that you’re particularly captivated by or inspired
Holly Copeland (37m 55s):
By. Oh, that’s a great question. Yeah. Well, we mentioned her, I’m really inspired by the work of Sue Morter and the energy codes. Cool. Yeah. I’ve mentioned her to clients all the time, because I love her blending of Western philosophy, you know, Eastern and Western work and embodied you’ve spoke about embodiment and that’s where it starts. That’s where awareness practice starts. I think. Great. It’s to be lived. Yeah,
Christine Okezie (38m 30s):
Yeah. Feel it in the body. Right. I mean, cause what is the opposite of that? We were just talking about when you started is the head, the chatter, chatter, chatter that constant, you know, monkey mind stuff, you know, the opposite of that is to just drop into the body. Right?
Holly Copeland (38m 43s):
Exactly. Exactly. You drop into the body, you get out of the office of the mind to use like Kelly’s words, you know, and, and go down into your heart and, and really allow that kind of, you know, stop taking what your mind has to say, like stop leaving at a top, stop thinking your thoughts that really have any they matter because they, they aren’t, you, they don’t matter. And I say those words and people hear that, but like, you actually have to have it. You actually have to feel the essential being that you are before you will believe because the mine’s just going to come up and start questioning again. Right.
Christine Okezie (39m 23s):
That’s right. Yes, yes. Yes.
Holly Copeland (39m 26s):
I think, I think Sue Morter does a great job of helping people get in the body and yeah. And then the vibrational medicine, I mentioned her before, but Eileen McKusick I think is just doing some great revolutionary work on, you know, the ORIC field and mapping the ORIC field. Another person, Julia Moss bridge with ions is somebody who’s got a project looking. COVID love, they’re looking at how do we, can we come up with a model where love is our currency using blockchain?
Christine Okezie (40m 6s):
Oh, I know. That’s so funny. I feel like I’ve heard this before. This is great. Yes. Yes. Okay.
Holly Copeland (40m 13s):
Yeah. They’re building a model of, of how could we have the currency of love? Yes. You know, it’s sounds pretty far out there, but you start to see the pieces coming together with, you know, where we are with, you know, the monetary system and, and cryptocurrency that’s right, right. Chains and all this stuff. We don’t really know anything about
Christine Okezie (40m 39s):
It. No, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s, you know, I mean, we’re ready. Feels like we’re living in the Jetsons. You know, we have a thing called the cloud, you know, we talking to this device, we can, you know, I mean, so I mean, you know, it was just one, it’s just the con it’s just the constant evolution of that.
Holly Copeland (40m 54s):
Yeah. Yeah. And then the last thing I’ll mention is I’m really on a number of projects right now that use VR and VR is fairly new for me, but I was just asked to beta test a product called horizon mind that is an NLP neuro-linguistic programming VR app. Wow. You know, the, with this vision that if VR gets really big and people could go in and have these corrective experiences of NLP experiences VR to help them work through traumas and issues. Amazing. Yeah, I think so. I mean, tried it out and I was like, this is pretty, I could see that this has, this could really have some potential.
Holly Copeland (41m 41s):
Wow. Yeah. I’m on a project. We have a flow rooms, like the idea of getting people into flow with VR and some people I’m working with on that too. So, wow. I think VR is, you know, we’ve just seen the very beginning of it and I think there’s some really great potential there to, to help people in real, real ways. I use the meditation app trip, which is another VR app. Oh, okay. Okay. You haven’t tried it before. It’s pretty, it’s pretty awesome. So those are all, some things that have my attention. Thank
Christine Okezie (42m 10s):
You. That’s awesome. I’m going to be including all those resources.
Holly Copeland (42m 14s):
I do. I am a big fan of insight timer and I’m, I’m even a teacher on insight timer now, so. Excellent. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. So I think there’s amazing resources on, on, on insight timer. That’s the one I know the best
Christine Okezie (42m 30s):
In terms of what’s available in terms again, many, many, so many different flavors on insight timer. That’s what’s so great
Holly Copeland (42m 36s):
About it, you know? Yes. Yeah, totally. Yeah.
Christine Okezie (42m 39s):
Excellent. Well maybe I can ask, is there a special program or opportunity that you’d like folks to know about?
Holly Copeland (42m 46s):
Oh, thank you for asking. I have a few retreats coming up that I’m pretty excited about. Cool. There’s one in Hawaii in November with my colleague Steven Altair and then another one that’s not yet posted on my website, but we’ll leave soon in Costa Rica in end of October. Fantastic. Yep. With my colleague Emily Kirsha. So yeah, if people are feeling like they want to leave, if they’re in the U S and they can leave, right. There’s a lot of people can’t leave people, friends in Australia and stuff. If you’re somewhere in a, in a retreat, I’m going to bring all my devices and give people a chance to try them out and talk a lot about tech and neuroscience.
Holly Copeland (43m 31s):
And we’ve been with meditation. If that sounds like fun to you, I’d love to have you join.
Christine Okezie (43m 36s):
Oh, thank you. Oh my gosh, Holly. Thank you so much. This has been so eye opening and really inspiring. So thank you for all the work that you do. And I can’t wait to share all that information with our listeners on the podcast. Show notes.
Holly Copeland (43m 49s):
Thanks so much, Christina. It’s been really, this has been a wonderful conversation. I really appreciate the invitation. Thanks Holly. Bye. You too.